1 00:00:04.620 --> 00:00:06.780 Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. 2 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:12.580 Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you 3 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.420 by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. 4 00:00:14.820 --> 00:00:19.900 My name is Julia Golding and I have been running a series over the last 5 00:00:19.900 --> 00:00:24.100 few months, well actually it's every year now I think, where we have been 6 00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:29.520 slowly reading our way through Lord of the Rings and we have reached chapter 11 7 00:00:29.520 --> 00:00:34.760 in book three, that's basically halfway through the two towers and that chapter 8 00:00:34.760 --> 00:00:40.680 is called the Palantir and we'll be taking a look at it primarily with a 9 00:00:40.680 --> 00:00:44.380 view to seeing what Tolkien is doing as an author. 10 00:00:45.260 --> 00:00:47.600 Okay, so first of all, cards on the table. 11 00:00:47.900 --> 00:00:55.480 This particular chapter I find really hard to read and that is because it is 12 00:00:55.480 --> 00:01:00.940 the chapter where Pippin goes and looks in the Palantir, the seeing stone and I 13 00:01:00.940 --> 00:01:05.340 find that a sort of really difficult thing to read or watch is that cringe 14 00:01:05.340 --> 00:01:10.900 factor, the oh don't do it, don't do it thing and that is actually a 15 00:01:10.900 --> 00:01:12.520 sign of powerful writing. 16 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:20.120 If you have your audience sort of flinching it means that you're really getting 17 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:22.500 at them so it's both good and painful. 18 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:28.320 Your plot has to feel as though it's going to fail as in it's not 19 00:01:28.320 --> 00:01:32.580 definitely going to be a happily ever after and this is one of those chapters 20 00:01:32.580 --> 00:01:36.780 where we have a knife edge moment which is very well written. 21 00:01:37.300 --> 00:01:44.140 It's also a chapter which demonstrates the tinkering that Tolkien did. 22 00:01:44.260 --> 00:01:47.760 Now he is a famous tinkerer, I mean the Silmarillion was never finished in his 23 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:52.000 lifetime because he was always changing things, doing a little bit more here 24 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:58.300 and there and this chapter shows him tinkering away partly because as we 25 00:01:58.300 --> 00:02:04.360 covered in the previous episode on this, that the idea of the Palantir came to 26 00:02:04.360 --> 00:02:06.020 him as he was writing. 27 00:02:06.260 --> 00:02:11.320 It wasn't something he'd thought through before so it wasn't completely woven 28 00:02:11.320 --> 00:02:18.520 in how he wanted it to be so he went back in later editions and 29 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:24.840 slightly changed wording to represent the new status that Palantir had. 30 00:02:25.200 --> 00:02:27.580 I'm not going to go into the detail of what he did but if you 31 00:02:27.580 --> 00:02:31.720 have a first edition and you compare it to later editions you'll see there are 32 00:02:31.720 --> 00:02:36.380 slightly different things that Gandalf says and so on. 33 00:02:36.440 --> 00:02:43.000 This is because he didn't quite, I mean it's pretty well woven in but he 34 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:48.680 felt as though he needed to digest that idea a bit more and it's also 35 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:53.980 interesting because the Palantir themselves he wrote about in the Unfinished 36 00:02:53.980 --> 00:02:59.040 Tales so you can get some extra information about what he thought about them 37 00:02:59.040 --> 00:03:03.760 later on by looking at the Unfinished Tales so I would recommend if you've got 38 00:03:03.760 --> 00:03:07.360 a copy of the Unfinished Tales, it's only a short bit, go and have a 39 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:08.820 read of that section. 40 00:03:09.660 --> 00:03:13.460 Okay, so what is the structure of this particular chapter? 41 00:03:13.780 --> 00:03:20.340 It's a series of conversations really and I would say it has the theme of 42 00:03:20.340 --> 00:03:24.360 unquenchable hobbits and curiosity. 43 00:03:24.880 --> 00:03:29.120 That is the thread that everything is strung on. 44 00:03:30.020 --> 00:03:36.160 So we've got a Merry and Gandalf conversation, then a Merry and Pippin and then 45 00:03:36.160 --> 00:03:44.080 in the center there's a Pippin and Sauron conversation, then there's Gandalf 46 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:50.600 and Pippin and Gandalf and Aragorn and then finally when they're on Shadowfax 47 00:03:50.600 --> 00:03:55.160 there's a Gandalf and Pippin long conversation which is different from all the 48 00:03:55.160 --> 00:04:00.000 others because it gives a bit more about lore and the history of Middle-earth 49 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:00.540 and so on. 50 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:06.180 But it's very much lots of information is conveyed in this particular chapter 51 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:10.080 and of course it falls at the end of Book 3. 52 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:16.440 So for the organizing principle of Lord of the Rings, it falls halfway because 53 00:04:16.440 --> 00:04:20.019 it's roughly halfway through the story. 54 00:04:22.330 --> 00:04:28.070 So we actually start though, we're still in Isengard, we're about to leave and 55 00:04:28.070 --> 00:04:32.910 we get a last glimpse in this book of Treebeard and the Ents. 56 00:04:33.470 --> 00:04:41.350 And it's interesting here that one of the things Tolkien does is Merry and 57 00:04:41.350 --> 00:04:45.330 Pippin, who are our points of view at this point, they are circling back in 58 00:04:45.330 --> 00:04:49.270 their own minds to the first time they meet Treebeard. 59 00:04:49.350 --> 00:04:54.810 That's quite an elegant way of summing up this episode with the Ents, seeing 60 00:04:54.810 --> 00:04:59.590 him being like an old tree stump, his move from the forest to being on 61 00:04:59.590 --> 00:05:01.640 the doorstep of Orthanc. 62 00:05:02.700 --> 00:05:06.640 And we also get the Ents lined up either side. 63 00:05:06.760 --> 00:05:09.660 Now, I do know I've never noticed this detail before. 64 00:05:10.020 --> 00:05:12.840 I think I've always read past it a little bit too quickly. 65 00:05:13.740 --> 00:05:17.100 But this time, obviously, because I'm doing it for this podcast, I was 66 00:05:17.100 --> 00:05:18.440 thinking, well, what does that look like? 67 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:24.840 And it made me think that actually they're like an honor guard escorting out 68 00:05:26.080 --> 00:05:28.240 Ferdinand and Gandalf and Aragorn. 69 00:05:28.780 --> 00:05:31.200 But it also is an avenue of trees. 70 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:33.700 They can be both at the same time. 71 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:37.020 So it's a rather beautiful picture, which I'm pleased I lingered over this 72 00:05:37.020 --> 00:05:37.340 time. 73 00:05:38.060 --> 00:05:44.120 And it's also a sense that the gardens that used to surround Orthanc are going 74 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:49.540 to be recreated later on, I believe, towards the end. 75 00:05:49.980 --> 00:05:54.600 Treebeard calls it the Tree Garth of Orthanc, which is a lovely way of saying 76 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:57.600 it's going to be full of trees and why not an avenue of trees? 77 00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:04.280 And as they leave, the riders get as far as the White Hand, which they 78 00:06:04.280 --> 00:06:07.480 had met on their way in, which has now been destroyed. 79 00:06:07.820 --> 00:06:12.220 And Gandalf sort of sums up this whole episode by saying, the Ents pay 80 00:06:12.220 --> 00:06:13.880 attention to every detail. 81 00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:19.660 They've come out this far and destroyed the last symbol of Saruman's power. 82 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:25.480 So the next section is Merry and Gandalf riding together and having a 83 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:26.220 conversation. 84 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:31.960 And it's mainly the purpose of this conversation is a little bit picking up 85 00:06:33.200 --> 00:06:38.640 from the previous chapter about what Saruman's state of mind might be. 86 00:06:39.460 --> 00:06:46.020 But it is also and introducing this theme of the unquenchable Hobbit. 87 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:54.400 So Gandalf tells Merry, who makes this comment that he's a ragtag, sort of 88 00:06:54.400 --> 00:06:58.260 riding alongside with Gandalf, which is picking up. 89 00:06:59.260 --> 00:07:03.100 You'll hear the echo from the previous chapter, bringing it forward into here. 90 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:10.240 And Gandalf says, a sneer from him, Saruman, Merryadoc is a compliment. 91 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:19.760 And Merry isn't letting this subject rest and he carries on asking questions. 92 00:07:19.960 --> 00:07:22.980 I mean, Gandalf, if you think about it from Gandalf's point of view, he's just 93 00:07:22.980 --> 00:07:26.900 had this big showdown with the former head of his order. 94 00:07:28.340 --> 00:07:33.400 He's broken his staff and he probably wants just to have a quiet think and 95 00:07:33.400 --> 00:07:35.060 Merry is full of questions. 96 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:42.240 And so in response, we get this very Gandalfian phrase, a most unquenchable 97 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:42.780 Hobbit. 98 00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:47.940 All wizards should have a Hobbit or two in their care to teach them the 99 00:07:47.940 --> 00:07:50.020 meaning of the word and to correct them. 100 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:55.040 Now that last bit and to correct them is slightly ambiguous, but I think 101 00:07:55.040 --> 00:08:02.300 because the them isn't clear, but I don't think it's to correct the Hobbits, 102 00:08:02.640 --> 00:08:03.940 though he does do that quite a lot. 103 00:08:04.200 --> 00:08:09.520 I think it's more that the Hobbits correct the wizards when they're being too 104 00:08:09.520 --> 00:08:11.660 wizardly and a bit too big for their boots. 105 00:08:12.740 --> 00:08:20.940 So it's a character note here on Gandalf that even when he's tired and come 106 00:08:20.940 --> 00:08:26.320 out of a major confrontation, he has a sense of humour and he's also doesn't 107 00:08:26.320 --> 00:08:28.360 consider himself infallible. 108 00:08:28.500 --> 00:08:34.539 So we've moved from this heightened confrontation to humour, Gandalf laughs, of 109 00:08:34.539 --> 00:08:36.740 course, warmth and relief. 110 00:08:38.659 --> 00:08:45.960 But also Merry gives the writer here, gives Tolkien as the author, the 111 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:53.460 curiosity of the Hobbit gives him the chance to regain momentum, so exiting out 112 00:08:53.460 --> 00:08:57.760 of this particular episode. 113 00:08:58.020 --> 00:09:02.300 If you think of someone doing a floor gymnastics display, they do their amazing 114 00:09:02.300 --> 00:09:06.520 flips and they land it, but then they have to move into the next section. 115 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:09.140 Then we're into that next section here. 116 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:16.020 And it also gives the, as well as regaining momentum, it also gives Tolkien the 117 00:09:16.020 --> 00:09:17.720 chance to explain the stakes. 118 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.240 In a big complicated book like this, you may know Lord of the Rings so 119 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.200 well, you already understand what the stakes are. 120 00:09:25.260 --> 00:09:29.060 But if you go back to thinking what it was like when you first read 121 00:09:29.060 --> 00:09:35.360 it, it is a complicated story with a number of different battlefronts with a 122 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:37.100 number of different enemies and so on. 123 00:09:38.700 --> 00:09:44.700 Gandalf explains it to Merry, Merry is basically us, stands for the reader in 124 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:46.800 this particular set of questions. 125 00:09:47.680 --> 00:09:52.900 And Gandalf says, yes, we have won, but only the first victory, don't put the 126 00:09:52.900 --> 00:09:54.880 book down now, we've got lots more to do. 127 00:09:55.520 --> 00:09:57.980 And that in itself increases our danger. 128 00:09:59.040 --> 00:10:04.280 So remember, always keep the tension, keep raising the tension, you've got to 129 00:10:04.280 --> 00:10:07.080 keep on raising the stakes, raising the tension. 130 00:10:07.560 --> 00:10:12.300 So you may have a little bit of laughter and relief, but the longer perspective 131 00:10:12.300 --> 00:10:13.620 is it's not over. 132 00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:16.760 Otherwise, you'll lose your audience, won't you? 133 00:10:17.880 --> 00:10:22.440 Okay, so Merry is standing in for us, he's giving the author a chance to 134 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:25.280 reiterate what's exactly at stake. 135 00:10:26.020 --> 00:10:30.940 I want to draw your attention now to one of those lovely little hidden bits 136 00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:34.140 of Tolkien, you know how much I like these, if you've been listening to this. 137 00:10:34.700 --> 00:10:41.320 And that is their campsite, where this incident with the Palantir takes place. 138 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:46.860 I never really noticed the how specific the details are. 139 00:10:47.760 --> 00:10:54.320 In the film, if you're coming at this from a Peter Jackson version, this 140 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:59.340 happens in Edoras, in a building, it's probably easier to film. 141 00:11:00.340 --> 00:11:05.820 But actually, isn't it nice to be out in the wild on this journey? 142 00:11:06.400 --> 00:11:08.760 And there's a lovely detail here. 143 00:11:09.500 --> 00:11:14.900 They lit a fire in a hollow, down among the roots were spreading hawthorn, tall 144 00:11:14.900 --> 00:11:18.780 as a tree, rhythm with age, but hail in every limb. 145 00:11:19.700 --> 00:11:22.980 Buds were swelling at each twig's tip. 146 00:11:23.800 --> 00:11:26.380 Buds were swelling at each twig's tip. 147 00:11:26.880 --> 00:11:27.620 Quite hard to say. 148 00:11:28.300 --> 00:11:31.680 But also very specific. 149 00:11:31.900 --> 00:11:33.920 It's a way of telling us where we are in the season. 150 00:11:34.680 --> 00:11:40.760 Hawthorns, for anyone who's not in the UK countryside, are a very common 151 00:11:40.760 --> 00:11:43.320 hedging shrub. 152 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:50.320 They have spikes on, but they are one of the first shrubs that come into 153 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:52.040 leaf as spring arrives. 154 00:11:53.380 --> 00:11:56.560 So the hawthorn has leaves first, then flowers. 155 00:11:56.820 --> 00:11:59.360 The blackthorn has flowers first, then leaves. 156 00:11:59.520 --> 00:12:00.800 I bet Tolkien knew the difference. 157 00:12:01.340 --> 00:12:05.240 And here, we've got the buds coming of the future leaves. 158 00:12:06.040 --> 00:12:07.860 Anyway, I like how specific this is. 159 00:12:07.980 --> 00:12:11.120 I can walk around the countryside where I live, spot the hawthorns and think, 160 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:13.680 yeah, that's the kind of hawthorn they were under. 161 00:12:14.880 --> 00:12:17.960 And then we move into the Merry and Pippin conversation. 162 00:12:19.180 --> 00:12:22.620 So it's like the second movement, really, in this particular chapter. 163 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:30.320 And note how Tolkien starts to wind up the more immediate danger here. 164 00:12:30.920 --> 00:12:33.880 We've laid the bigger stakes, but there's a new danger, which none of them 165 00:12:33.880 --> 00:12:37.000 expect is about to happen. 166 00:12:37.340 --> 00:12:41.000 Though if you've been reading carefully, you would have picked up some of those 167 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.960 warning notes when Pippin ran to pick up the palantir in that section in the 168 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:48.000 previous chapter. 169 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:53.920 And we get it sort of starting here where the sour note comes in. 170 00:12:54.380 --> 00:12:57.400 It would be like a jarring note in a musical theme. 171 00:12:58.460 --> 00:13:02.180 When you're reading this carefully, you can see what's going to happen. 172 00:13:02.820 --> 00:13:05.860 And this is where the cringe factor comes because you're given plenty of time 173 00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:07.440 to anticipate what he's going to do. 174 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:12.060 And it begins with the prosaic off note of, are you lying on an anthill? 175 00:13:12.820 --> 00:13:14.520 Pippin is restless. 176 00:13:15.940 --> 00:13:19.720 And this section is given mainly from Merry's point of view. 177 00:13:19.900 --> 00:13:23.540 We're still with Merry because Pippin is being secretive. 178 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:25.060 Never a good sign. 179 00:13:26.920 --> 00:13:30.980 And he's also speaking as close as he ever gets to Gollum. 180 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:32.780 He says, I picked it up. 181 00:13:32.900 --> 00:13:33.800 I saved it. 182 00:13:33.880 --> 00:13:34.500 Me, me, me. 183 00:13:35.400 --> 00:13:36.700 Another very bad sign. 184 00:13:37.300 --> 00:13:45.040 Merry, who doesn't realize just how serious this is, he tries to turn Pippin 185 00:13:45.040 --> 00:13:48.620 away from those thoughts by mentioning Gildor's saying. 186 00:13:49.580 --> 00:13:51.580 And he also just mentioned Sam here. 187 00:13:51.740 --> 00:13:54.340 Don't forget that this story is really about Frodo and Sam. 188 00:13:55.280 --> 00:13:59.580 He says, Sam used to repeat the saying, do not meddle in the affairs of 189 00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:03.000 wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. 190 00:14:03.880 --> 00:14:08.400 We do see a bit of temper from Gandalf, though we see more mercy than 191 00:14:08.400 --> 00:14:08.800 temper. 192 00:14:09.880 --> 00:14:11.860 But still, he's saying, watch out. 193 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.000 This really isn't for a hobbit to meddle in. 194 00:14:15.520 --> 00:14:23.680 Another sign of danger is that Pippin is being, I would say, a little bit 195 00:14:23.680 --> 00:14:24.060 mocking. 196 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.300 He talks about Gandalf being like a hen with an egg. 197 00:14:29.620 --> 00:14:30.800 It's not that funny. 198 00:14:31.100 --> 00:14:33.860 It's sort of funny, but also it's not that funny. 199 00:14:34.920 --> 00:14:38.440 And this doesn't feel like the normal Pippin. 200 00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:40.780 He's not being straightforward. 201 00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:44.380 He hasn't gone up to Gandalf and said, think about the other options. 202 00:14:44.780 --> 00:14:46.360 Can I have another look at that, please? 203 00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:49.440 That would be what a normal Pippin would do. 204 00:14:49.580 --> 00:14:50.860 I really want to know what that's about. 205 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:51.680 Can you show me? 206 00:14:52.140 --> 00:14:54.520 But no, he is hiding. 207 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:57.220 And basically, he is sneaking. 208 00:14:57.900 --> 00:15:00.180 Remember that word that comes up later, doesn't it? 209 00:15:01.020 --> 00:15:03.820 Anyway, so Merry goes to sleep without being aware. 210 00:15:04.280 --> 00:15:08.040 And then we switch the point of view to Pippin. 211 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.000 And this is brilliantly painful. 212 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.360 This is why I find it really hard to read. 213 00:15:13.180 --> 00:15:17.340 We get this intriguing image of the sleeping Gandalf, which was actually done 214 00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:19.320 in the film very well by Ian McKellen. 215 00:15:19.700 --> 00:15:22.480 You get the glitter of eyes under his long lashes. 216 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:24.680 He sleeps with his eyes slightly open. 217 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:33.440 And Pippin does this sneaky thing of switching a stone for the palantir so that 218 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.020 Gandalf isn't aware that it's gone. 219 00:15:37.160 --> 00:15:41.540 And then he does this self-justification. 220 00:15:42.020 --> 00:15:43.760 He sort of begins to have cold feet. 221 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:46.280 And then he says, oh, well, I can't put it back now. 222 00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:50.320 I might as well have a look first. 223 00:15:51.220 --> 00:15:55.400 So he's slipping further and further into this sneaky behaviour. 224 00:15:56.460 --> 00:15:58.400 And then the point of view shifts. 225 00:15:59.540 --> 00:16:02.260 So we do have, this is a third-person narration. 226 00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:05.680 And in third-person narration, you can sort of skim in and out of various 227 00:16:05.680 --> 00:16:05.900 things. 228 00:16:06.020 --> 00:16:09.580 It's very hard to do well, by the way, not the easiest stance to take 229 00:16:09.580 --> 00:16:15.680 if you're writing your first novel, because the rules are a bit loose. 230 00:16:16.460 --> 00:16:21.440 But here we move from it being sort of Pippin talking to looking at him 231 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:22.320 from the outside. 232 00:16:22.540 --> 00:16:24.540 And I was thinking, well, what point of view do we have? 233 00:16:24.640 --> 00:16:29.260 In a way, it's almost as though the moon is the point of view, because 234 00:16:29.260 --> 00:16:34.400 one of the last images we get is the moon looking over at Pippin and 235 00:16:34.400 --> 00:16:35.640 he's shown by moonlight. 236 00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:37.880 But it's probably more the narrator. 237 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:43.360 It's kind of, we are like the moon looking down with the narrator on Pippin. 238 00:16:43.900 --> 00:16:49.220 He bent low over it, it being the palantir, looking like a greedy child 239 00:16:49.220 --> 00:16:53.900 stooping over a bowl of food in a corner away from others. 240 00:16:54.820 --> 00:16:55.720 Pippin is boyish. 241 00:16:55.760 --> 00:16:58.960 He's one of the youngest in the company, if not the youngest. 242 00:16:59.540 --> 00:17:02.620 But this isn't a good image of childhood. 243 00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:07.440 It is greed, that sort of classic greed. 244 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:14.520 And the thing that you've gone away, you've hidden your secret stash, all of 245 00:17:14.520 --> 00:17:17.660 these things are massive red warning lights. 246 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.180 We're outside his experience. 247 00:17:21.760 --> 00:17:23.480 So we're watching him do this. 248 00:17:23.800 --> 00:17:28.240 We don't know what he did when he looked into the stone. 249 00:17:28.340 --> 00:17:29.920 We only see his reactions. 250 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:34.980 And this is that technique, you hold back the information. 251 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.160 And we don't find out until he confesses. 252 00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:42.140 So we keep the tension going. 253 00:17:42.360 --> 00:17:46.960 Has he basically said, watch out, Sauron, you've got a ring bearer coming 254 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:47.480 towards you? 255 00:17:47.560 --> 00:17:48.280 Has he said that? 256 00:17:48.580 --> 00:17:53.060 That is all the possibilities, which of course is rushing through Gandalf's 257 00:17:53.060 --> 00:17:58.400 mind when Pippin's sort of cry alerts everybody. 258 00:17:59.320 --> 00:18:05.040 And Gandalf says, the devilry, what mischief has he done to himself and to all 259 00:18:05.040 --> 00:18:05.500 of us? 260 00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:11.220 Which if you hadn't realised as a reader at this point, that there was anything 261 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:15.100 terribly wrong with what he was doing, though I think you would, this is the 262 00:18:15.100 --> 00:18:19.420 moment when you see actually this quest hangs on the edge of a knife. 263 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:22.560 It might fall, it might fail. 264 00:18:24.630 --> 00:18:32.330 Then we get the interrogation scene, which is horrific, because if we love 265 00:18:32.330 --> 00:18:38.830 Pippin, as we do by now, he's ventriloquising as if possessed by Sauron. 266 00:18:39.550 --> 00:18:42.750 He says, it is not for you, Saruman. 267 00:18:43.450 --> 00:18:45.890 He's speaking in the voice of Sauron. 268 00:18:46.330 --> 00:18:55.190 In fact, Pippin, in a sense, is the closest any of the companions have got 269 00:18:55.190 --> 00:18:56.290 to Sauron so far. 270 00:18:56.670 --> 00:19:00.410 Clearly Frodo sees him through the ring and the whisperings of the ring and 271 00:19:00.410 --> 00:19:02.390 Aragorn will later look in the same stone. 272 00:19:03.030 --> 00:19:08.070 But Pippin is the first to actually report back, shall we say, what is going 273 00:19:08.070 --> 00:19:09.110 on in Barad-dûr. 274 00:19:09.770 --> 00:19:11.850 So it is a big, big scene. 275 00:19:12.730 --> 00:19:22.310 And notice that Sauron says, to him, a hobbit is it, not a person, just 276 00:19:22.310 --> 00:19:22.830 a thing. 277 00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:25.750 And that is, of course, his attitude to Middle-earth. 278 00:19:27.370 --> 00:19:33.410 And then Pippin snaps back into himself and we know he's back in himself 279 00:19:33.410 --> 00:19:35.470 because he says, Gandalf, forgive me. 280 00:19:35.710 --> 00:19:39.790 The plea for forgiveness is the Pippin voice. 281 00:19:41.030 --> 00:19:42.270 So we don't know. 282 00:19:42.510 --> 00:19:44.350 Remember, we've kept this tension going. 283 00:19:45.590 --> 00:19:53.890 Tolkien's holding back the answers and then Gandalf persuades Pippin to 284 00:19:53.890 --> 00:19:54.450 confess. 285 00:19:55.170 --> 00:19:59.010 And Pippin upburdens himself of his experience. 286 00:19:59.890 --> 00:20:01.650 He explains what he saw. 287 00:20:02.530 --> 00:20:06.150 And then it sort of comes to this culmination of, then he came. 288 00:20:06.370 --> 00:20:08.350 He isn't named, it's italicized. 289 00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:11.690 A bit like Voldemort in Harry Potter. 290 00:20:12.010 --> 00:20:13.510 It's he who will not be named. 291 00:20:13.590 --> 00:20:15.390 He doesn't say Sauron, but he came. 292 00:20:15.910 --> 00:20:16.430 And it took me a while. 293 00:20:16.530 --> 00:20:19.330 I was thinking, well, is this like the chief Nazgûl? 294 00:20:19.570 --> 00:20:21.210 But no, it's happening in Barad-dûr. 295 00:20:22.070 --> 00:20:25.370 Of course, technically, Sauron is disembodied. 296 00:20:25.530 --> 00:20:30.370 But of course, he could project himself in a shape or a form in a 297 00:20:30.370 --> 00:20:31.250 palantir, couldn't he? 298 00:20:31.330 --> 00:20:33.610 So I think it all lines up. 299 00:20:34.430 --> 00:20:37.410 But he's obviously got a voice and he's got a look. 300 00:20:37.610 --> 00:20:38.490 Maybe it's the eye. 301 00:20:39.870 --> 00:20:46.070 So I think we have a sense that the presence of Sauron is what Pippin 302 00:20:46.070 --> 00:20:47.350 is exposed to. 303 00:20:48.890 --> 00:20:51.870 But Sauron is not all-knowing. 304 00:20:52.050 --> 00:20:53.010 He's too greedy. 305 00:20:53.370 --> 00:20:56.290 So he is like the boy crouched over the bowl of food. 306 00:20:56.430 --> 00:20:58.750 He wants to get Pippin for himself. 307 00:20:59.410 --> 00:21:04.610 So he, equally, Saruman and Sauron both are too greedy. 308 00:21:05.110 --> 00:21:08.690 And that is a fatal flaw because he doesn't stop and interrogate Pippin 309 00:21:08.690 --> 00:21:09.090 properly. 310 00:21:10.050 --> 00:21:13.690 He just says, this dainty is for me, not for you, Saruman. 311 00:21:14.550 --> 00:21:17.270 Gandalf is able to see into Pippin's heart. 312 00:21:17.870 --> 00:21:20.610 And he says, he's a fool, but an honest fool. 313 00:21:20.770 --> 00:21:21.450 He remains. 314 00:21:21.590 --> 00:21:21.990 You remain. 315 00:21:22.210 --> 00:21:24.010 And he says, I forgive you. 316 00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:29.930 And he also pretty much immediately says, my dear Hobbit, he's warmer towards 317 00:21:29.930 --> 00:21:33.350 Pippin after this than he has been for a while. 318 00:21:33.990 --> 00:21:40.770 So that shows the mercy that is the response of Gandalf to these situations 319 00:21:40.770 --> 00:21:43.070 where people fail or fail him. 320 00:21:44.810 --> 00:21:50.930 And then we get a reference to the first conversation Gandalf had with Merry. 321 00:21:51.790 --> 00:21:57.330 He says to Aragorn, who's worried about Pippin as well, Hobbits have an amazing 322 00:21:57.330 --> 00:21:58.770 power of recovery. 323 00:21:59.010 --> 00:22:00.250 They are unquenchable. 324 00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:07.590 And we get a small scene here, which is the shift in Aragorn's position. 325 00:22:08.370 --> 00:22:13.410 So if we're thinking about the big character arc of Aragorn, he has been moving 326 00:22:13.410 --> 00:22:15.250 closer and closer to Gondor. 327 00:22:16.490 --> 00:22:21.370 He has declared himself when he arrived in Rohan. 328 00:22:22.870 --> 00:22:24.730 He has presented his sword. 329 00:22:24.850 --> 00:22:25.990 The sword has been in battle. 330 00:22:26.370 --> 00:22:28.030 So he's getting step by step closer. 331 00:22:29.030 --> 00:22:32.330 I note the sword was already there and it does not arrive later as in 332 00:22:32.330 --> 00:22:33.790 the film version of this. 333 00:22:34.790 --> 00:22:39.370 He takes a step towards the return of the king, which is obviously good because 334 00:22:39.370 --> 00:22:40.510 we're at the end of this book. 335 00:22:41.070 --> 00:22:44.450 And the next time he arrives, he's going to be at the beginning of Return 336 00:22:44.450 --> 00:22:48.250 of the King, which is his big moment. 337 00:22:49.590 --> 00:22:53.470 When Gandalf asks him to look after the Palantir, he says it is his by 338 00:22:53.470 --> 00:22:53.830 right. 339 00:22:54.230 --> 00:22:58.270 He's stepping up to become the king of Gondor and Arnor. 340 00:22:59.610 --> 00:23:01.790 And Gandalf recognizes this moment. 341 00:23:02.010 --> 00:23:03.830 He bowed and presented it. 342 00:23:04.450 --> 00:23:05.870 It's a formal moment. 343 00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:09.650 And we have a gear shift, don't we, in their relationship. 344 00:23:09.830 --> 00:23:12.930 They've already been sort of companions on the road, but now it's more like 345 00:23:12.930 --> 00:23:18.430 king's counselor and king, which is how it will be in the war councils going 346 00:23:18.430 --> 00:23:18.810 forward. 347 00:23:20.150 --> 00:23:24.770 And you see the balance in the relationship that Gandalf feels able to counsel 348 00:23:24.770 --> 00:23:30.650 and Aragorn feels able to accept part or some of the counsel. 349 00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:38.230 So when Gandalf says, take care with this, don't rush to use it. 350 00:23:39.250 --> 00:23:45.530 Aragorn says, when have I been hasty or unwary who have waited and prepared for 351 00:23:45.530 --> 00:23:47.070 so many long years? 352 00:23:48.130 --> 00:23:53.410 So he's beginning to say, well, if I'm king, I need to be able to 353 00:23:53.410 --> 00:23:56.470 make these decisions on my own, listening to my counselors. 354 00:23:56.650 --> 00:23:59.270 And you can see this changing at this moment. 355 00:23:59.550 --> 00:24:02.710 It sort of slips by, but I think it is an important moment. 356 00:24:03.630 --> 00:24:06.830 The other thing here is that Gandalf is blaming himself. 357 00:24:07.930 --> 00:24:16.630 Pippin's caused this ruckus, but he admits to Aragorn, he feels he should have 358 00:24:16.630 --> 00:24:17.850 known what was going on. 359 00:24:19.730 --> 00:24:22.030 And Aragorn says something quite interesting here. 360 00:24:22.030 --> 00:24:26.290 I think this is Tolkien talking to himself, answering his own plot point. 361 00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:31.170 At last, we know the link between Isengard and Mordor and how it worked. 362 00:24:31.610 --> 00:24:35.910 It may have been narratively speaking, a question Tolkien had in his back of 363 00:24:35.910 --> 00:24:36.390 his mind. 364 00:24:37.150 --> 00:24:40.550 Remember, he didn't know the Palantir existed until Wormtongue threw it out. 365 00:24:40.670 --> 00:24:42.190 And then he thought, aha, Palantir. 366 00:24:43.650 --> 00:24:46.450 And so he thought, yeah, that will solve this plot problem. 367 00:24:46.450 --> 00:24:51.730 So when you're writing, look out for those moments where you can use a detail 368 00:24:51.730 --> 00:24:54.470 to tie your plot together more elegantly. 369 00:24:56.270 --> 00:25:00.470 And Gandalf goes on to say, it was strangely fortunate he was saved by the 370 00:25:00.470 --> 00:25:03.730 Hobbit, perhaps from looking in himself. 371 00:25:05.190 --> 00:25:09.630 And Aragorn says, well, don't you think it's time you came out of the shadows? 372 00:25:09.870 --> 00:25:12.450 And Gandalf is sort of explaining the strategy. 373 00:25:12.610 --> 00:25:15.410 We have to use this short while of doubt. 374 00:25:16.170 --> 00:25:17.810 We have been too leisurely. 375 00:25:17.950 --> 00:25:18.550 We must move. 376 00:25:18.870 --> 00:25:19.850 We've got to get ahead. 377 00:25:20.350 --> 00:25:22.910 We've got to get in front of the enemy now. 378 00:25:23.030 --> 00:25:24.910 We may capitalize on this victory. 379 00:25:25.430 --> 00:25:30.250 This does feel like the sort of debates that were going on in World War 380 00:25:30.250 --> 00:25:30.510 II. 381 00:25:30.830 --> 00:25:36.030 This is being written in the darkest days of the World War. 382 00:25:36.710 --> 00:25:41.850 And so he would be thinking of the sort of discussions that were going on 383 00:25:41.850 --> 00:25:47.470 in the papers about how to get ahead of the Nazis. 384 00:25:48.410 --> 00:25:50.490 So in a way, it feels very real. 385 00:25:50.790 --> 00:25:51.950 Is this the right thing to do? 386 00:25:52.030 --> 00:25:53.350 Should we show our hand now? 387 00:25:53.450 --> 00:25:54.790 Should we put our forces there? 388 00:25:55.090 --> 00:25:57.150 It has that feeling of reality. 389 00:25:57.370 --> 00:26:00.330 And the best fantasy does feel real, doesn't it? 390 00:26:00.410 --> 00:26:04.070 And I feel this is one of those little discussions where it's not obvious what 391 00:26:04.070 --> 00:26:04.690 they should do. 392 00:26:05.350 --> 00:26:07.110 But he knows that speed is needed. 393 00:26:08.410 --> 00:26:11.070 And the arrival of the Nazgûl confirms that. 394 00:26:12.270 --> 00:26:16.750 An overflight of a Nazgûl heading to Isengard. 395 00:26:18.290 --> 00:26:23.050 And Gandalf said something here, which is quite abrupt and it feels a bit like 396 00:26:23.050 --> 00:26:24.090 it might have made them panic. 397 00:26:24.250 --> 00:26:28.090 But anyway, let not the swift wait for the slow ride. 398 00:26:28.490 --> 00:26:33.370 So off he goes, grabbing Pippin without any of Pippin's stuff. 399 00:26:34.010 --> 00:26:37.610 Gandalf just picks up his own pack and off they go and ride away. 400 00:26:38.090 --> 00:26:43.190 And there's a little tiny little scene here where poor old Mary is grumbling 401 00:26:43.190 --> 00:26:46.230 after the drama being left behind. 402 00:26:46.410 --> 00:26:50.390 And Aragorn says, in his corrective, you might have done worse. 403 00:26:50.810 --> 00:26:53.370 So you point the finger at Pippin, but you might have done worse. 404 00:26:53.610 --> 00:26:54.170 I don't know. 405 00:26:54.490 --> 00:26:59.670 I mean, Mary in some ways has a bit more common sense, doesn't he? 406 00:26:59.770 --> 00:27:01.730 But fair enough, we take the point, Aragorn. 407 00:27:02.170 --> 00:27:04.750 Who knows what we would have done facing the Palantir. 408 00:27:05.790 --> 00:27:13.610 So the last part of this chapter changes gear completely because we get a 409 00:27:13.610 --> 00:27:15.110 moment of peace. 410 00:27:15.250 --> 00:27:20.410 When you've got a character like Gandalf, who feels like a safe haven, if 411 00:27:20.410 --> 00:27:25.170 you're with Gandalf, particularly if you're sitting in front of him in a horse, 412 00:27:25.250 --> 00:27:28.330 it's hard to imagine something bad is going to happen. 413 00:27:28.470 --> 00:27:32.330 It's almost like in the arms of a parent or something for a child. 414 00:27:32.570 --> 00:27:33.950 It's got that feeling of safety. 415 00:27:34.110 --> 00:27:39.870 And there's time here for Pippin to be the unquenchable hobbit and ask the 416 00:27:39.870 --> 00:27:45.890 questions, which are again, the kind of questions we as readers have. 417 00:27:46.030 --> 00:27:49.830 So if you've got questions, don't just sort of information dump. 418 00:27:50.090 --> 00:27:55.010 Make sure they're part of a question and answer session, which is driven by the 419 00:27:55.010 --> 00:27:55.390 plot. 420 00:27:55.830 --> 00:28:00.150 It feels necessary to have this out here and now. 421 00:28:02.390 --> 00:28:06.150 Though we do get a bit more because, of course, Tolkien is fond of his 422 00:28:06.150 --> 00:28:06.490 lore. 423 00:28:08.210 --> 00:28:12.590 It also is a place for Tolkien to get rid of some of the things 424 00:28:12.590 --> 00:28:13.670 that have been bugging him. 425 00:28:13.890 --> 00:28:18.650 We know that he had this rhyme going around in his head, which he didn't 426 00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:19.470 know what it meant. 427 00:28:20.850 --> 00:28:25.630 And here he gets a chance to give an explanation, tall ships and tall kings, 428 00:28:25.810 --> 00:28:29.790 that little six line poem. 429 00:28:31.170 --> 00:28:38.430 And as ever in Tolkien, it links back to the foundational story for Middle 430 00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:41.810 -earth or the men of Middle-earth, which is the fall of Númenor. 431 00:28:43.290 --> 00:28:45.250 Hobbit curiosity drives this chapter. 432 00:28:45.850 --> 00:28:51.090 And we get lots of things said here, which perhaps Pippin himself might not 433 00:28:51.090 --> 00:28:51.950 know much about. 434 00:28:53.450 --> 00:28:57.430 And a bit like a reader reading this for the first time, some of these 435 00:28:57.430 --> 00:28:58.770 names we know nothing about. 436 00:28:58.870 --> 00:29:00.310 The Noldor made them. 437 00:29:01.330 --> 00:29:03.070 That's the High Elves. 438 00:29:04.090 --> 00:29:09.730 So that explains why these Palantir are able to crack the steps, because they 439 00:29:09.730 --> 00:29:16.350 are made by the Elves who were the masters, the master smiths from the depths 440 00:29:16.350 --> 00:29:16.870 of time. 441 00:29:18.310 --> 00:29:24.470 But even there, Gandalf says, but there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to 442 00:29:24.470 --> 00:29:29.970 evil uses, which is one of the themes, isn't it, of Lord of the Rings. 443 00:29:30.930 --> 00:29:36.470 And it gives Gandalf a chance to review the fall of Saruman. 444 00:29:37.810 --> 00:29:41.570 He talks about how it was the fatal step. 445 00:29:42.470 --> 00:29:45.930 And remember again, it's this image of someone keeping something for 446 00:29:45.930 --> 00:29:47.510 themselves, that greedy child. 447 00:29:48.290 --> 00:29:49.790 That was Saruman too. 448 00:29:49.870 --> 00:29:51.670 He kept it from the White Council. 449 00:29:52.690 --> 00:30:01.110 And it was the step which brought him to fall under the thrall, thralldom of 450 00:30:01.110 --> 00:30:02.410 Sauron. 451 00:30:03.270 --> 00:30:08.950 But Gandalf, though he is obviously merciful when he can be, he also doesn't 452 00:30:08.950 --> 00:30:10.090 hold back. 453 00:30:10.210 --> 00:30:12.430 He says, yet he must bear the blame. 454 00:30:13.290 --> 00:30:16.250 He can't claim to be the victim here. 455 00:30:16.550 --> 00:30:17.310 He had a choice. 456 00:30:17.370 --> 00:30:19.890 He took the choice, which I think is interesting. 457 00:30:20.050 --> 00:30:23.130 And Gandalf is a tough love person. 458 00:30:24.130 --> 00:30:30.150 He goes on to describe the functioning of the stones and how in Saruman's case, 459 00:30:30.310 --> 00:30:36.130 the biters bit the hawk under the eagle's foot, the spider in the steel web. 460 00:30:36.770 --> 00:30:38.250 So Saruman is trapped. 461 00:30:39.650 --> 00:30:45.970 And we also get here, which I love, is a glimpse of Gandalf's mind, because 462 00:30:45.970 --> 00:30:49.190 it gives him a chance to say what he would most like to see. 463 00:30:49.470 --> 00:30:52.850 It reminded me a bit of the Mirror of Erised in Harry Potter, where if 464 00:30:52.850 --> 00:30:54.530 you look in it, you see what you most want to see. 465 00:30:54.930 --> 00:31:01.110 A palantir, what you could see with it, what it could reveal is like that 466 00:31:01.110 --> 00:31:01.310 too. 467 00:31:01.430 --> 00:31:05.930 And it also, of course, reminds us in this world, this fictional world of 468 00:31:05.930 --> 00:31:07.050 Galadriel's mirror as well. 469 00:31:08.130 --> 00:31:10.230 But anyway, Gandalf says, what does he want to see? 470 00:31:10.230 --> 00:31:14.630 He wants to look back to the land where he used to live over in 471 00:31:14.630 --> 00:31:15.630 the Undying West. 472 00:31:16.430 --> 00:31:20.850 And he wants to see the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor. 473 00:31:21.030 --> 00:31:24.810 Now, Fëanor is the smith who made the Silmarils. 474 00:31:25.350 --> 00:31:27.630 I think he's a bit evil. 475 00:31:28.250 --> 00:31:30.870 But there's a Blakean power to him, isn't there? 476 00:31:31.010 --> 00:31:36.370 Like a William Blake, the poet, in his famous poem, Tiger, Tiger, burning 477 00:31:36.370 --> 00:31:38.850 bright in the forest of the night. 478 00:31:39.410 --> 00:31:43.650 What immortal hand or eye dare frame thy fearful symmetry? 479 00:31:44.010 --> 00:31:45.730 It's got that kind of power. 480 00:31:45.950 --> 00:31:49.070 There's even some word similarity in that. 481 00:31:49.170 --> 00:31:55.310 So it's a Blakean image of Fëanor who ruined things really for the Elves. 482 00:31:55.390 --> 00:31:57.010 But anyway, that's the Silmarillion. 483 00:31:58.610 --> 00:32:03.670 And going back to the tough love, Gandalf, Pippin begins to excuse himself. 484 00:32:06.690 --> 00:32:10.250 Oh, you had this. 485 00:32:10.570 --> 00:32:16.170 We need to take responsibility for the things we do wrong as adults, as grown 486 00:32:16.170 --> 00:32:16.430 -ups. 487 00:32:16.830 --> 00:32:18.990 There isn't a free pass, but there is mercy. 488 00:32:19.970 --> 00:32:25.470 Even so, though, you can see that Pippin is unquenchable and he's also 489 00:32:25.470 --> 00:32:31.650 fundamentally at ease and trusting Gandalf because there's a lovely joke here 490 00:32:31.650 --> 00:32:35.770 where Gandalf says, oh, you know, surely that's enough questions for tonight. 491 00:32:36.710 --> 00:32:38.610 And Gandalf says, what more do you want to know? 492 00:32:39.370 --> 00:32:43.490 And Pippin says, the names of all the stars and of all living things and 493 00:32:43.490 --> 00:32:48.410 the whole history of Middle-earth and over heaven and of the Sundering Seas, 494 00:32:49.150 --> 00:32:49.810 laughed Pippin. 495 00:32:50.710 --> 00:32:52.070 Of course, what less? 496 00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:54.750 But I am not in a hurry tonight. 497 00:32:55.070 --> 00:32:57.470 So he wants to know that, but not now, Gandalf. 498 00:32:57.890 --> 00:33:01.710 So they have an ease, which is a lovely note to strike in this relationship, 499 00:33:01.890 --> 00:33:03.530 which has been put through this test. 500 00:33:04.610 --> 00:33:09.670 And Gandalf goes on to explain how Sauron is really in a cleft stick. 501 00:33:10.030 --> 00:33:15.870 He will appear a rebel to Sauron because Sauron will assume Pippin or the 502 00:33:15.870 --> 00:33:22.050 Hobbit is in the tower and Sauron is refusing to come and talk to him. 503 00:33:22.110 --> 00:33:25.570 He can't imagine that the Palantir has been thrown out a window. 504 00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:29.130 It's a bit like he can't imagine the ring will be cast into a fire. 505 00:33:29.230 --> 00:33:32.110 It's the same thought here, but it's just in an earlier form of it. 506 00:33:33.150 --> 00:33:35.470 Remember what I said at the beginning about tinkering? 507 00:33:35.630 --> 00:33:39.770 There's one little note here, which is picked up in the Lord of the Rings, 508 00:33:40.390 --> 00:33:46.970 a reader's companion, which is in the lineup, Saruman went and talked to 509 00:33:46.970 --> 00:33:47.570 Théoden. 510 00:33:48.270 --> 00:33:49.950 He mentioned Gimli. 511 00:33:50.370 --> 00:33:51.390 He talked to Gandalf. 512 00:33:51.470 --> 00:33:53.390 He didn't talk to Aragorn. 513 00:33:53.930 --> 00:33:59.690 And I think Tolkien worried that he needed a reason why Saruman doesn't try and 514 00:33:59.690 --> 00:34:02.070 win over the future king of Gondor. 515 00:34:03.170 --> 00:34:06.790 And so he gives this detail here, which is a tinkering detail to make the 516 00:34:06.790 --> 00:34:11.810 plot work, that Aragorn was standing in the armor of Rohan. 517 00:34:12.969 --> 00:34:19.050 So maybe Wormtongue didn't have a chance to tell him that Aragorn was there and 518 00:34:19.050 --> 00:34:20.570 might tell him later. 519 00:34:21.449 --> 00:34:27.489 But it makes sense that Saruman was unaware Aragorn was actually part of the 520 00:34:27.489 --> 00:34:33.030 party standing in front of him, even if Wormtongue had mentioned that this 521 00:34:33.030 --> 00:34:36.210 person had turned up at Edoras earlier. 522 00:34:36.389 --> 00:34:41.130 So that nice tinkering moment, Tolkien's fixing his plot. 523 00:34:42.429 --> 00:34:46.290 So just to wrap up, we're coming to the end of Book Three now. 524 00:34:46.830 --> 00:34:51.489 The note that Gandalf strikes here is the one which keeps the tension going. 525 00:34:51.650 --> 00:34:56.490 He says to Pippin, every stride on Shadowfax bears you nearer to the land of 526 00:34:56.490 --> 00:34:56.770 shadow. 527 00:34:56.930 --> 00:34:58.430 The momentum is going. 528 00:34:58.810 --> 00:35:00.630 We're still getting nearer our goal. 529 00:35:01.830 --> 00:35:05.690 But we're doing it going backwards over the path we've already gone past. 530 00:35:05.750 --> 00:35:11.030 There's a quick nod to the caves that Gimli and Legolas have promised to visit, 531 00:35:11.190 --> 00:35:12.090 that kind of thing. 532 00:35:12.770 --> 00:35:19.410 In the unfinished tales, in the bit about the Palantir I mentioned, Tolkien 533 00:35:19.410 --> 00:35:22.330 explains that Gandalf is actually worrying about Denethor here. 534 00:35:22.750 --> 00:35:24.750 I looked carefully as I was reading it. 535 00:35:24.810 --> 00:35:29.650 He does mention Denethor's name, but it's not something he tells Pippin. 536 00:35:29.750 --> 00:35:32.390 So we don't know as a reader that he's worrying about Denethor. 537 00:35:32.650 --> 00:35:35.090 He's worrying about what happened to these stones. 538 00:35:36.090 --> 00:35:39.750 So it's a hidden message underneath what's going on here. 539 00:35:40.570 --> 00:35:46.590 But Tolkien and that's going to be really the plot lead that will be the 540 00:35:46.590 --> 00:35:52.350 Pippin, Gandalf, Denethor section when we get to Return of the King. 541 00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:56.410 I just want to end on the last paragraph, which I always find a sort 542 00:35:56.410 --> 00:36:03.050 of beautiful way of stilling the motion, like finding the place to call cut in 543 00:36:03.050 --> 00:36:08.110 this book, which is this wonderful moment as Pippin falls asleep. 544 00:36:08.710 --> 00:36:12.550 As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling. 545 00:36:13.150 --> 00:36:18.430 He and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse, 546 00:36:18.950 --> 00:36:23.970 while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind. 547 00:36:25.250 --> 00:36:34.830 So it's that moment of stillness, but actually still moving, which ends this 548 00:36:34.830 --> 00:36:39.690 book in a minor key and we're ready to pick up in book four with 549 00:36:39.690 --> 00:36:41.090 Frodo and Sam. 550 00:36:42.230 --> 00:36:44.410 So that will be the next episode. 551 00:36:44.650 --> 00:36:45.790 Thank you very much for listening. 552 00:36:51.210 --> 00:36:56.050 Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought to you by the Oxford 553 00:36:56.050 --> 00:36:57.210 Centre for Fantasy. 554 00:36:57.810 --> 00:37:01.770 Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. 555 00:37:02.450 --> 00:37:07.870 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