1 00:00:04.600 --> 00:00:06.920 Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. 2 00:00:07.119 --> 00:00:12.300 Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to 3 00:00:12.300 --> 00:00:14.620 you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. 4 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:22.440 My name is Julia Golding and today we have a special Sidecast where we take an 5 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:26.720 author's journey through the Lord of the Rings, by which we mean we're looking 6 00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:32.040 at it from how it was written rather than the sort of minor points of Elvish or 7 00:00:32.040 --> 00:00:32.700 that kind of thing. 8 00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:39.580 We have reached in our journey chapter two of book four, that is the second 9 00:00:39.580 --> 00:00:45.800 half of The Two Towers, and it's a chapter called The Passage of the Marshes. 10 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:51.260 Now, when I came to write this down, I realised I'd misremembered it as The 11 00:00:51.260 --> 00:00:56.080 Passage of the Dead Marshes, because it is indeed the Dead Marshes, but the 12 00:00:56.080 --> 00:00:58.880 chapter title is actually just the simple Marshes. 13 00:00:59.420 --> 00:01:05.300 And if you're reading it for the first time, that holds back that there are 14 00:01:05.300 --> 00:01:06.400 dead things in the water. 15 00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:11.720 So I just wanted to try and refresh our memory as to what it was like to read 16 00:01:11.720 --> 00:01:12.780 this for the first time. 17 00:01:13.720 --> 00:01:18.080 Looking at how this chapter is divided, it's one of the longer ones. 18 00:01:18.220 --> 00:01:23.960 I actually have read it and also listened to the Andy Serkis version of this, 19 00:01:24.820 --> 00:01:28.460 partly because there's so much Gollum in it, so why wouldn't you? 20 00:01:29.520 --> 00:01:36.260 And it is over an hour reading time, so it's one of the longer chapters, but 21 00:01:36.260 --> 00:01:40.720 not as long as The Council of Elrond, never forget that two-hour mammoth 22 00:01:40.720 --> 00:01:41.440 chapter. 23 00:01:42.140 --> 00:01:47.820 Anyway, I would say that it is divided mainly by places, this one. 24 00:01:48.880 --> 00:01:53.420 So we go from the gully, which is the sort of last part of the Emyn Weal, that 25 00:01:53.420 --> 00:01:57.460 rocky landscape they've been clambering around in for what seems like forever. 26 00:01:58.340 --> 00:02:06.760 Then the marshes themselves, then there's this pit, horrible pit at the end of 27 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:10.380 the marshes, and then there's a sort of moving on. 28 00:02:10.540 --> 00:02:14.520 It's a very small bit where they're moving on from the pit, haven't quite 29 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:20.480 reached the gates yet, but they're pretty much in sight of the rampart walls of 30 00:02:20.480 --> 00:02:21.800 Mordor. 31 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:28.480 One of the things just to note here is that Gollum has been here before, as he 32 00:02:28.480 --> 00:02:29.860 refers to that a number of times. 33 00:02:29.980 --> 00:02:35.560 And so we are in the area where the film The Hunt for Gollum will probably be 34 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:42.840 spending some of its time, because this is a place with layers of history, as 35 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:44.380 is so much of Middle-earth. 36 00:02:44.440 --> 00:02:48.260 When you're thinking about the world building that Tolkien does, this is a good 37 00:02:48.260 --> 00:02:49.720 example to have in mind. 38 00:02:50.040 --> 00:02:55.700 So you've got very recent history of Gollum's recent journeys in this area, but 39 00:02:55.700 --> 00:03:00.240 it of course goes back to stories of the Battle of Dagorlad, which is the 40 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:06.600 origin of the that they later see, which is thousands of years, 1,500, a long 41 00:03:06.600 --> 00:03:11.200 time ago before one of the battles in front of the gates. 42 00:03:11.820 --> 00:03:16.100 And of course, there is going forward, another battle at the gates of Mordor 43 00:03:16.100 --> 00:03:19.460 that's going to happen later in Return of the King. 44 00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:22.240 So there is a sense of history rhyming here. 45 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.520 It repeats itself, but has a different outcome. 46 00:03:25.480 --> 00:03:27.960 Anyway, that's the sort of setup of this chapter. 47 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:32.580 I would say the most important thing from the author's journey point of view is 48 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:36.060 looking at how Tolkien is characterising Gollum. 49 00:03:36.340 --> 00:03:40.080 Gollum is the star of these chapters, there's no getting away from it. 50 00:03:40.740 --> 00:03:42.600 He's the star really until we meet Faramir. 51 00:03:43.460 --> 00:03:46.380 He's acting here as the conscientious guide. 52 00:03:47.220 --> 00:03:48.920 He's casting around for traces. 53 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:51.140 He's often compared to a dog. 54 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:54.300 It happened in the previous chapter and it's happening again in this one. 55 00:03:55.760 --> 00:03:58.000 Repeatedly, they keep going back to this idea of a dog. 56 00:03:58.820 --> 00:04:03.780 And casting around for traces is like the bloodhound sniffing out what's the 57 00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:06.040 right direction. 58 00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:10.920 There's a weird connection here, which I hadn't thought of until I was 59 00:04:10.920 --> 00:04:15.720 concentrating on this, to how Gandalf finds his way through Moria. 60 00:04:15.860 --> 00:04:18.240 He also sniffs the air. 61 00:04:18.440 --> 00:04:20.720 So clearly, it's a good thing for a guide to do. 62 00:04:21.700 --> 00:04:26.120 When we look at Gollum here, he's full of contradictions. 63 00:04:26.300 --> 00:04:29.260 I made a little list of the ways he appears. 64 00:04:30.080 --> 00:04:39.700 I've written down drama queen, jester, cynic, villain, and child, and dog, as 65 00:04:39.700 --> 00:04:40.400 we've just heard. 66 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:46.140 The childishness comes in him singing this little song. 67 00:04:46.140 --> 00:04:48.800 But it's like a child in a horror movie. 68 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.000 You know that there's something off about them, something wrong. 69 00:04:53.640 --> 00:04:57.280 It also gives a link back to Bilbo. 70 00:04:58.620 --> 00:05:07.220 It's the reference to the riddle game that they play in the Misty Mountains, 71 00:05:07.500 --> 00:05:11.820 one of those connections that weaves the Hobbit into The Lord of the Rings. 72 00:05:13.020 --> 00:05:18.640 Some of you will be familiar with the latter part of this song, which is about 73 00:05:18.640 --> 00:05:22.780 catching a fish so juicy sweet, because it's transposed in the Peter Jackson 74 00:05:22.780 --> 00:05:29.300 film from here to a little bit later on, when they're in the pool beneath the 75 00:05:29.300 --> 00:05:35.600 hideout that Faramir's men are using in Ithilien. 76 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:41.340 If you're listening to it, it's quite fun because Andy Serkis sings it again. 77 00:05:41.620 --> 00:05:44.960 Just another reason to have a listen to that audio version. 78 00:05:46.500 --> 00:05:51.020 This chapter is largely from Sam's point of view. 79 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:56.420 If you've listened to what I said about the previous chapter, I mentioned how 80 00:05:56.420 --> 00:05:57.760 Frodo begins to disappear. 81 00:05:57.980 --> 00:06:03.380 This is actually the chapter where he really starts to vanish under the burden 82 00:06:03.380 --> 00:06:03.960 of the ring. 83 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:11.540 A lot of the narrative weight is carried by Sam's point of view. 84 00:06:12.520 --> 00:06:18.320 Here's the one who notes the change of behavior, these mercurial changes of 85 00:06:18.320 --> 00:06:19.740 behavior in Gollum, largely. 86 00:06:21.460 --> 00:06:26.980 When Gollum mentions Bilbo, there's this sentence, "'A glint came into his 87 00:06:26.980 --> 00:06:31.840 eyes, and Sam, catching the gleam in the darkness, thought it far from 88 00:06:31.840 --> 00:06:33.960 pleasant.'" Understatement. 89 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:41.780 The rule seems to be, more or less, that when there is a green gleam, that kind 90 00:06:41.780 --> 00:06:44.020 of gleam, it's the Gollum villain. 91 00:06:44.840 --> 00:06:51.580 The paler light is a more childlike, wanting-to-please Smeagol. 92 00:06:54.220 --> 00:07:01.240 They're flipping between the two, as we see in a minute, when we get to that 93 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.180 standout conversation of this split personality. 94 00:07:04.980 --> 00:07:05.980 But that's not yet. 95 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:11.400 Sam, at this point, and it's referred to later in the chapter, he is thinking 96 00:07:11.400 --> 00:07:14.860 about their threat in a simple way. 97 00:07:15.380 --> 00:07:23.320 Tolkien describes him as having a simple mind, but it's not meant as an insult. 98 00:07:23.460 --> 00:07:26.640 It's meant that he calls a spade a spade. 99 00:07:27.260 --> 00:07:34.720 He is thinking here that they could be food for Gollum, which of course is 100 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:34.940 true. 101 00:07:35.060 --> 00:07:37.060 They could indeed be food. 102 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:40.400 That note is struck a number of times. 103 00:07:41.260 --> 00:07:46.400 There is also another way of telling who's in control of Gollum. 104 00:07:47.460 --> 00:07:53.260 On the whole, when he talks about his unitary self, that's, I will stay here, 105 00:07:53.340 --> 00:07:55.160 it tends to be Smeagol. 106 00:07:56.100 --> 00:07:59.880 When it's we, he tends to be shifting over into Gollum. 107 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.600 Not always, but you'll see that's largely what is happening. 108 00:08:04.780 --> 00:08:09.920 One of the things that Gollum reveals is that he is scared of the sun. 109 00:08:10.060 --> 00:08:12.120 He wants to only travel in the darkness. 110 00:08:14.380 --> 00:08:20.540 You get this beginning of him being this more cooperative Smeagol. 111 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:23.620 He says, nice, sensible hobbits, stay with Smeagol. 112 00:08:24.380 --> 00:08:30.200 Note how his speech is characterized by S and F sounds. 113 00:08:30.500 --> 00:08:35.260 It all goes with the whistling, cringy voice. 114 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:40.380 When you get the Gollum, you often get harder, more cracking sounds. 115 00:08:40.820 --> 00:08:42.400 Let's have a look at that a bit later on. 116 00:08:42.860 --> 00:08:44.580 Anyway, so he's being more Smeagol here. 117 00:08:45.400 --> 00:08:50.860 This comes to moving on from Sam fearing they're going to be food to working 118 00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:52.300 out how much food they've got left. 119 00:08:53.040 --> 00:08:59.280 Frodo is the one who offers some of their lembas, which Smeagol tries and of 120 00:08:59.280 --> 00:09:01.100 course hates. 121 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:06.480 This is where we get Smeagol the absolute drama queen. 122 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:11.360 You try to choke poor Smeagol, dust and ashes, he can't eat that. 123 00:09:12.620 --> 00:09:13.420 It goes on. 124 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.500 He coughs and he spits. 125 00:09:17.700 --> 00:09:22.580 Then he goes, nice hobbits, Smeagol has promised he will starve. 126 00:09:22.580 --> 00:09:25.140 He will starve poor thin Smeagol. 127 00:09:25.820 --> 00:09:29.920 This was one of the things that the film did very well because he was rolling 128 00:09:29.920 --> 00:09:32.720 around on the floor, so to say, how awful it all was. 129 00:09:33.640 --> 00:09:35.940 Complete drama queen at this point. 130 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:43.060 I was reminded here of the last battle and I think perhaps this is something 131 00:09:43.060 --> 00:09:49.340 that C.S. Lewis might have picked up or it may be one of the sources for what 132 00:09:49.340 --> 00:09:51.660 happens to the dwarves when they go through the stable. 133 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.860 In the last battle, when they're in the stable, they think they're not in a 134 00:09:56.860 --> 00:10:01.580 beautiful land but in a horrible mucky stable with only turnips and rotten veg 135 00:10:01.580 --> 00:10:03.240 to eat when there's actually a feast. 136 00:10:04.700 --> 00:10:12.980 The idea there is that some states of mind, some sinful or evil people cannot 137 00:10:12.980 --> 00:10:14.540 see the good that's in front of them. 138 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:16.180 Frodo says this. 139 00:10:16.880 --> 00:10:23.300 He says to Gollum, it would do you good if you try, but perhaps you can't even 140 00:10:23.300 --> 00:10:26.320 try, not yet anyway. 141 00:10:26.680 --> 00:10:31.900 That not yet anyway betrays the fact that Frodo does believe in redemption. 142 00:10:32.140 --> 00:10:35.600 He wants to believe that Gollum can be saved. 143 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:39.960 It's an important hope for him to carry him on this journey. 144 00:10:41.300 --> 00:10:44.740 Then we get one of these references to Gollum being like a dog. 145 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:45.520 There's lots of them. 146 00:10:45.560 --> 00:10:48.280 I won't pick all of them out, but this is one that I particularly liked. 147 00:10:49.160 --> 00:10:55.120 Once he refuses the lembas, he watches them like an expectant dog by a diner's 148 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.580 chair, thinking that maybe they've got something else hidden. 149 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:01.580 Anybody who's a dog owner knows what that looks like. 150 00:11:03.040 --> 00:11:09.880 In the discussion about Gollum, and Sam is not worried about him being upset by 151 00:11:09.880 --> 00:11:15.680 anything he says, Sam is the practical one, but Frodo is astute. 152 00:11:16.380 --> 00:11:18.820 He knows, he understands what's going on. 153 00:11:19.380 --> 00:11:24.940 The way this was done in the films is much more contentious, so much more 154 00:11:24.940 --> 00:11:25.960 arguing about it. 155 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:32.220 Here, it's more of a discussion because this is really a chapter of the 156 00:11:32.220 --> 00:11:34.900 changing power dynamics between three people. 157 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:36.380 It's not exactly a love triangle. 158 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:40.900 It's a triangle of faith and trust and mistrust. 159 00:11:41.400 --> 00:11:43.500 Probably is a better way of thinking about it. 160 00:11:44.160 --> 00:11:50.500 For filmic purposes, they push it to make it so they break up Frodo and Sam, 161 00:11:50.560 --> 00:11:51.840 which doesn't happen in the book. 162 00:11:53.140 --> 00:11:57.780 So it's good to actually try and delete all that from your mind and reset it 163 00:11:57.780 --> 00:12:01.780 and read it how it's written in the book because Frodo isn't ignorant here. 164 00:12:01.900 --> 00:12:07.280 He is astute and he's trying to beyond this present moment. 165 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.820 He's actually foreseen where they're going in a way that Sam hasn't yet. 166 00:12:12.620 --> 00:12:17.380 This little episode in the gully is resolved by them falling asleep. 167 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.540 There's this nice little detail here, which sums up their different behaviors. 168 00:12:21.660 --> 00:12:22.780 Frodo's just gone to sleep. 169 00:12:23.420 --> 00:12:29.600 Sam prods Gollum gently and then whispers in his ear, fish. 170 00:12:30.640 --> 00:12:34.600 There's a note saying he restrains his thoughts about using his sword and the 171 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:35.220 rope on him. 172 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.860 Sam is under orders not to hurt Gollum, but also remember he only tied the rope 173 00:12:41.860 --> 00:12:43.200 lightly. 174 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:48.180 So he may be saying things, but he would never carry them out as is proved 175 00:12:48.180 --> 00:12:51.560 later on when he spares Gollum at the key moment. 176 00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:56.220 Sam's intention to stay awake doesn't work out. 177 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:04.120 When he wakes up having slept well, I like this fact that he curses himself 178 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:11.080 with various reproachful names from the gaffer's large paternal word horde. 179 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:16.780 So word horde is a very sort of sound like an Anglo-Saxon word, but you know 180 00:13:16.780 --> 00:13:18.000 exactly what's going on here. 181 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:23.340 And this is the association with Sam is always goes back to the shire, the 182 00:13:23.340 --> 00:13:26.340 gaffer, his potatoes, that is the grounding. 183 00:13:27.400 --> 00:13:31.640 And one of the things I would say about the world building here is that the 184 00:13:31.640 --> 00:13:37.380 contrast in the places is always made to by evoking something else. 185 00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:40.800 And there's this hint of the shire with Sam always. 186 00:13:41.040 --> 00:13:46.520 And you'll see this chapter refers back to earlier places in the chapter to 187 00:13:46.520 --> 00:13:48.960 say, there was that, but this is worse. 188 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:50.780 There was that, but this is worse. 189 00:13:51.280 --> 00:13:54.500 It's like a link, paper chain link across this chapter. 190 00:13:55.120 --> 00:14:00.740 In terms of the power dynamics, Sam is really the quartermaster. 191 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.160 He's the one counting the food, saying how much have we got left? 192 00:14:05.420 --> 00:14:06.460 Will it get us back? 193 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.080 But here there is an enormous change. 194 00:14:10.220 --> 00:14:16.300 It's one of those break moments in the narrative, which is sometimes easy to 195 00:14:16.300 --> 00:14:16.920 miss. 196 00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:23.700 It's on page 231 of the three volume version of Lord of the Rings, where 197 00:14:23.700 --> 00:14:31.280 Frodo's language to Sam shifts because he's saying to Sam that actually we're 198 00:14:31.280 --> 00:14:34.600 on a suicide mission, basically. 199 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.980 But Samwise Gamgee, my dear Hobbit, here's the change. 200 00:14:40.100 --> 00:14:46.300 Indeed, Sam, my dearest Hobbit, friend of friends, not servant, friend of 201 00:14:46.300 --> 00:14:46.780 friends. 202 00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:51.420 I do not think we need give thought to what comes after that. 203 00:14:52.700 --> 00:14:53.800 Very moving. 204 00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:59.080 He's saying it's about achieving the mission, not about our own survival. 205 00:15:00.100 --> 00:15:04.100 And Sam's response is very touching. 206 00:15:04.400 --> 00:15:09.660 He reminds me here of a disciple to John the Baptist or Jesus, that kind of 207 00:15:09.660 --> 00:15:15.140 figure, the faithful servant with the person on this mission. 208 00:15:16.660 --> 00:15:20.240 And he reaches out and touches Frodo affectionately. 209 00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:22.020 He's weeping. 210 00:15:22.280 --> 00:15:28.280 And then, before we get too maudlin and sentimental, he gets up, sort of clears 211 00:15:28.280 --> 00:15:32.960 his throat, stamps around and tries to whistle to hide his emotion. 212 00:15:33.140 --> 00:15:37.980 That sort of hiding the emotion is that restraint of the stiff upper lip. 213 00:15:38.660 --> 00:15:41.860 He's not an English gent, obviously, but there is that sort of restraint of an 214 00:15:41.860 --> 00:15:46.160 English man, which he is reflecting here. 215 00:15:46.520 --> 00:15:48.080 He's not weeping and wailing. 216 00:15:48.260 --> 00:15:53.600 He's holding it back, which makes us admire him all the more because he's being 217 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.680 strong, when he's just realizing that he is very likely to die. 218 00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:07.000 So, when Gollum comes back, you get this question, trust Smeagol now, which is 219 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:07.680 Gollum's question. 220 00:16:07.780 --> 00:16:12.420 And that really is the question that presides in this chapter and in the next 221 00:16:12.420 --> 00:16:13.000 few chapters. 222 00:16:13.180 --> 00:16:14.520 Do they trust Smeagol? 223 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:16.100 Well, Sam, clearly not. 224 00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:18.700 Frodo, to a point. 225 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:25.620 Then one of the unusual features in this chapter compared to the book is we get 226 00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:33.120 one of the really short passages of description, but separated out by line 227 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:33.620 breaks. 228 00:16:33.920 --> 00:16:37.180 It's quite striking when you find it on the page. 229 00:16:38.060 --> 00:16:43.800 And this is the description of the marshes as they approach them. 230 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:44.460 I'll just read it. 231 00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:46.460 It's only two or three sentences. 232 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:53.060 On either side and in front, wide fens and mires now lay, stretching away 233 00:16:53.060 --> 00:16:59.000 southward and eastward into the dim light, mist curled and smote from dark and 234 00:16:59.000 --> 00:16:59.960 noisome pools. 235 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:02.720 The reek of them hung stifling in the air. 236 00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:08.740 Far away, almost due south, the mountain walls of Mordor loomed, like a black 237 00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:13.440 bar of rugged clouds floating above a dangerous fog-bound sea. 238 00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:17.040 So, what is happening here? 239 00:17:17.099 --> 00:17:24.020 Though visually, that separated paragraph is to make us almost stop and look at 240 00:17:24.020 --> 00:17:27.380 this scenery as the hobbits are. 241 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.600 It forces you to pause and take it all in. 242 00:17:31.860 --> 00:17:40.000 One of the distinctive things that happens in Tolkien's passages of description 243 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:44.780 are these moments of looking out across larger, vaster landscape. 244 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:51.200 We've referred to it before, but there's this idea that Tolkien loved, the idea 245 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:55.220 of the vistas beyond the vista, the places you don't see. 246 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:58.060 And this is one of those. 247 00:17:58.140 --> 00:18:02.640 We never actually really get to see that part of Mordor over the mountains 248 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:03.020 there. 249 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:04.860 We go further south when we're in Mordor. 250 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.920 So, there's places we glimpse but don't ever see. 251 00:18:09.040 --> 00:18:12.960 And that gives the sense of the expanse of Middle-earth and gives the depth to 252 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:13.640 the world-building. 253 00:18:14.540 --> 00:18:17.140 And now we enter properly into the marshes. 254 00:18:17.860 --> 00:18:19.360 Well, what are these marshes? 255 00:18:20.560 --> 00:18:23.800 I was reading in the Companion to the Lord of the Rings, which I've been 256 00:18:23.800 --> 00:18:26.600 referring to, Hammond and Scull, thank you very much. 257 00:18:27.020 --> 00:18:29.180 And they suggest a number of sources. 258 00:18:29.800 --> 00:18:31.700 They refer to H. 259 00:18:31.800 --> 00:18:36.200 Rider Haggard's She, which we know Tolkien admired. 260 00:18:36.740 --> 00:18:41.520 There's an old Gothic source, which I think he would be thrilled to know about 261 00:18:41.520 --> 00:18:43.380 because of his love for the Gothic literature. 262 00:18:44.860 --> 00:18:50.180 But also, of course, there is the connection to the battle landscapes of 263 00:18:50.180 --> 00:18:51.140 Northern France. 264 00:18:51.760 --> 00:18:58.520 And they quote two particular ones that are very close to the descriptions here 265 00:18:58.520 --> 00:19:04.260 by an officer called Alfred Bundy and the famous poet Siegfried Sassoon. 266 00:19:04.600 --> 00:19:09.040 But of course, Tolkien wouldn't have needed to have read those diaries of poems 267 00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:12.240 because he was there and he saw it himself. 268 00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:18.840 And this whole chapter really is more literature when there comes to a lineup 269 00:19:18.840 --> 00:19:21.540 of the great works of the First World War. 270 00:19:21.740 --> 00:19:23.440 Lord of the Rings should be in it, really. 271 00:19:24.580 --> 00:19:27.900 The Hobbits are now wholly in the hands of Gollum. 272 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.580 And this is a very long strung out jeopardy. 273 00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:36.900 Remember, there always has to be something at stake in your story when you're 274 00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:37.240 writing. 275 00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:42.020 And in this one, it's the trust Sméagol or not question. 276 00:19:43.340 --> 00:19:47.500 And perhaps we are as readers thinking, when is going to portray them or if at 277 00:19:47.500 --> 00:19:47.980 all? 278 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.380 But I think it's more of a question of when from the way he behaves, the sense 279 00:19:52.380 --> 00:19:57.160 that he is barely restrained by this frail promise. 280 00:19:57.740 --> 00:20:03.720 We get a shift here as well, where we move from Sam's point of view to a 281 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.560 narratorial point of view, which isn't available to the Hobbits. 282 00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:10.520 Because they don't know. 283 00:20:11.080 --> 00:20:15.420 They don't know that just over the ridge is the hard to Mordor and that this 284 00:20:15.420 --> 00:20:16.780 was the field of the ancient battle. 285 00:20:17.220 --> 00:20:22.200 So there's a moment here where we're moving to the narratorial stance. 286 00:20:22.760 --> 00:20:27.760 But remember, the concept here is these are the reminiscences of the Hobbits 287 00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:31.740 later put together by Bilbo and Frodo. 288 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:37.400 So a later reflection on this, though it feels a bit like talking to me. 289 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:44.560 And there is a wonderful summing up of their dilemma by Sméagol. 290 00:20:44.860 --> 00:20:50.000 This is where you've got a passage creating character, developing character, 291 00:20:50.080 --> 00:20:52.120 but also telling us what's going on. 292 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:53.960 And it's just brilliantly done. 293 00:20:54.340 --> 00:21:00.700 This is at the top of page 233, if you've got the same edition as me, because 294 00:21:00.700 --> 00:21:02.760 they're basically saying, can't we go some other way? 295 00:21:03.940 --> 00:21:06.900 And Gollum, this is where he gets to be the sarcastic. 296 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:09.800 Well, he's making a joke at their expense, really. 297 00:21:10.840 --> 00:21:12.260 But it's very black humour. 298 00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:17.160 He says, oh, no need at all to go that way. 299 00:21:17.540 --> 00:21:21.240 Not if the Hobbits want to reach the Dark Mountains and go to see him very 300 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:21.720 quick. 301 00:21:23.580 --> 00:21:29.560 And he goes on to say, to stress that the eye is watching. 302 00:21:30.020 --> 00:21:33.360 This connects to a later passage about what Frodo is feeling. 303 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.440 It's a little glimpse into the back story of how Sméagol was caught himself. 304 00:21:38.620 --> 00:21:41.100 And he's saying he now knows other ways. 305 00:21:41.260 --> 00:21:46.620 It's I know other ways, which possibly, Sméagol speaking, more difficult, not 306 00:21:46.620 --> 00:21:50.020 so quick, but better if we don't want him to see. 307 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:50.880 Follow Sméagol. 308 00:21:51.460 --> 00:21:55.280 He can take you through the marshes, through the mists, nice thick mists. 309 00:21:56.580 --> 00:22:01.760 Follow Sméagol very carefully and you may go a long way, quite a long way, 310 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.660 before he catches you. 311 00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:05.500 Yes, perhaps. 312 00:22:06.060 --> 00:22:07.320 Before he catches you. 313 00:22:07.560 --> 00:22:08.380 Yes, perhaps. 314 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.640 Keep undermining. 315 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.680 This isn't a sense of a quest that's inevitably going to succeed. 316 00:22:14.540 --> 00:22:19.660 And Sméagol is part of the undermining of the foundations of their hope. 317 00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:24.680 So they go off in single file, Gollum, Sam, Frodo. 318 00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:29.660 I'm just underlining that here because there is a change that comes later when 319 00:22:29.660 --> 00:22:33.620 on the other side or getting towards the other side of these marshes, which 320 00:22:33.620 --> 00:22:39.240 further emphasises the shift from Frodo being in control to Sam being more in 321 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:39.780 the forefront. 322 00:22:40.620 --> 00:22:42.820 Sam has to look after Frodo and they shift position. 323 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:48.060 But let's have a look at this wonderful descriptive prose of what it's like to 324 00:22:48.060 --> 00:22:50.160 be out on the marshes. 325 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.860 And it's done by summoning up what isn't there. 326 00:22:56.200 --> 00:23:00.600 Cold, clammy winter still held sway in this forsaken country. 327 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:07.420 The only green was the scum of livid weed on the dark, greasy surfaces of the 328 00:23:07.420 --> 00:23:08.500 sullen waters. 329 00:23:09.420 --> 00:23:15.580 Dead grasses and rotting reeds loomed up in the mists like ragged shadows of 330 00:23:15.580 --> 00:23:17.220 long forgotten summers. 331 00:23:18.600 --> 00:23:22.780 Like ragged shadows of long forgotten summers. 332 00:23:23.140 --> 00:23:28.680 So there's almost like a ghost of summer present in this haunted place. 333 00:23:29.420 --> 00:23:30.820 Wonderful evocation. 334 00:23:32.120 --> 00:23:38.000 And that contrast of what's not there is further evoked by mention of the sun. 335 00:23:38.780 --> 00:23:42.700 Because the next paragraph goes, far above the rot and vapours of the world, 336 00:23:42.820 --> 00:23:47.700 the sun was riding high and golden now in a serene country with its own floors 337 00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:48.960 of dazzling foam. 338 00:23:49.520 --> 00:23:53.240 But only a passing ghost of her could they see below. 339 00:23:54.860 --> 00:23:57.400 So again, this idea of they're in a world of ghosts. 340 00:23:57.740 --> 00:23:59.140 Even the sun feels like a ghost. 341 00:23:59.660 --> 00:24:00.540 I had to stop and think. 342 00:24:00.600 --> 00:24:03.380 I was trying to work out if Tolkien ever flew. 343 00:24:05.180 --> 00:24:07.880 Answers on a postcard because I'm not sure that he did. 344 00:24:08.360 --> 00:24:12.220 But we know that his son was in the RAF, Christopher. 345 00:24:13.320 --> 00:24:16.580 And there were obviously people have written about flying. 346 00:24:16.900 --> 00:24:23.100 So he, Tolkien himself, didn't have that experience which most of us have of 347 00:24:23.100 --> 00:24:28.440 looking out of the aeroplane to the sun being above and the clouds looking 348 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:28.900 beautiful. 349 00:24:29.040 --> 00:24:34.160 But underneath we know that the world below is experiencing a grey and gloomy 350 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:34.460 day. 351 00:24:35.840 --> 00:24:37.740 I have to keep thinking about that. 352 00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:38.880 Did he ever fly? 353 00:24:40.020 --> 00:24:41.960 Can't think that he did, but I might be wrong. 354 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:50.860 One of the descriptions here of them moving through this landscape is of the 355 00:24:50.860 --> 00:24:56.780 three of them together, squatting like little hunted animals in the borders of 356 00:24:56.780 --> 00:24:58.820 the great brown reed thicket. 357 00:24:59.380 --> 00:25:01.860 This is just a reminder that hobbits aren't human. 358 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.720 There is an element where they're more like, of course, they're a kind of 359 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.220 human, but they hide quickly. 360 00:25:10.560 --> 00:25:12.640 They've got these hairy feet. 361 00:25:12.800 --> 00:25:14.600 There's something more creaturely about them. 362 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:20.360 And I remember listening to Martin Freeman talking about how he played Bilbo. 363 00:25:21.100 --> 00:25:24.300 I think it must be in the extended edition extras. 364 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:29.400 And he thought about him as a hedgerow creature. 365 00:25:30.120 --> 00:25:31.760 And you can see that in his performance. 366 00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:38.940 He sort of slightly like a mole or like a wind in the willows creature aspect 367 00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:43.560 to his performance when he's in Bag End. 368 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:48.140 It's quite interesting to sort of just have that sort of reminder that these 369 00:25:48.140 --> 00:25:52.980 creatures are also in their own way, part of this landscape, a little 370 00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:53.460 different. 371 00:25:54.580 --> 00:25:56.580 And that's the moment where it just pops up again. 372 00:25:57.560 --> 00:26:01.480 One of the most difficult things when you're writing a big epic like this is 373 00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:06.820 keeping up with the chronology, particularly when you've got multiple different 374 00:26:06.820 --> 00:26:07.360 stories. 375 00:26:08.420 --> 00:26:13.380 So Tolkien had a scheme where he wrote everything down as to what was 376 00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:13.700 happening. 377 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.200 You shifted things about to try and make connections. 378 00:26:17.280 --> 00:26:22.460 So in terms of where we are in the year, this is the end of February moving 379 00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:23.600 into March. 380 00:26:24.040 --> 00:26:28.700 February has 30 days in the Shire calendar, all months do. 381 00:26:29.520 --> 00:26:34.860 And so we're moving from that end of winter into an uncertain spring. 382 00:26:35.540 --> 00:26:40.260 And we'll see later that he tries to connect it to the other stories that are 383 00:26:40.260 --> 00:26:45.540 happening by the overflight of the ringwraiths, but he doesn't quite manage to 384 00:26:45.540 --> 00:26:46.860 find it at the right time. 385 00:26:47.140 --> 00:26:48.960 So he has to abandon the idea. 386 00:26:49.600 --> 00:26:52.000 But anyway, let's carry on looking at what's going on here. 387 00:26:52.430 --> 00:26:59.320 So we've got now into the deeper into the marshes. 388 00:27:00.360 --> 00:27:07.240 And we've got Sam as the one spotting the pale sheen of the lights, which 389 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:09.380 Gollum warns them are Trixie lights. 390 00:27:09.940 --> 00:27:14.380 This, of course, is the Will-o'-the-Wisp, the idea of the marsh gases releasing 391 00:27:14.380 --> 00:27:15.540 pale flames. 392 00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:21.340 But they're also here more of a magical flame that is to do with the presence 393 00:27:21.340 --> 00:27:23.680 of the dead creatures in the marsh as well. 394 00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:28.720 I would say that eerie and ghost-like is the prevailing mood. 395 00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:34.440 Again, when you're writing, if you're having lots of dark places, the stony, 396 00:27:34.620 --> 00:27:40.120 impossible Eminweal, the ash heaps of Mordor, you don't want to do the same 397 00:27:40.120 --> 00:27:42.800 kind of language for all of them. 398 00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:46.960 You want different lexical sets for each place. 399 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:52.740 And this one, the prevailing mood, I think, is that of eerie, stagnant, 400 00:27:53.080 --> 00:27:54.580 pungent, all those things. 401 00:27:55.300 --> 00:28:00.260 We get the most horrific moment, which comes really more or less in the middle 402 00:28:00.260 --> 00:28:04.360 of this chapter, where Frodo has wandered off. 403 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:06.320 He's been at the back and he's fallen behind. 404 00:28:06.320 --> 00:28:09.960 And he's in this kind of dream state, nightmarish state. 405 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:14.060 But it's not from his point of view that we see that. 406 00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:20.300 It's Sam who is the one who goes back and he falls down and sees what Frodo has 407 00:28:20.300 --> 00:28:20.680 seen. 408 00:28:21.340 --> 00:28:23.200 And it's interesting the way this is written. 409 00:28:24.340 --> 00:28:29.420 In the film, they do it, Frodo falls right into the pool and he's got jugged 410 00:28:29.420 --> 00:28:32.620 down by these sort of eerie creatures. 411 00:28:32.860 --> 00:28:34.000 It's all very much in your face. 412 00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:37.780 Here, it's actually spread out between the three of them. 413 00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:43.700 Sam falls and sees, and it's described as a sort of grimy window that he's 414 00:28:43.700 --> 00:28:44.200 looking through. 415 00:28:44.300 --> 00:28:47.540 But we don't then get a sentence saying what he saw. 416 00:28:47.800 --> 00:28:52.380 We get his exclamation about faces in the water. 417 00:28:54.440 --> 00:29:00.280 Gollum gives the explanation of where they came from, the battle, and that the 418 00:29:00.280 --> 00:29:03.300 marshes have eaten up the graves of the fallen warriors. 419 00:29:04.540 --> 00:29:12.360 And it's Frodo who gives us the gothic poetry description of the eeriness of 420 00:29:12.360 --> 00:29:13.980 what you see in the water. 421 00:29:14.140 --> 00:29:18.300 It's worth reading because it feels, the cadence is very haunting. 422 00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:24.320 In the pools, when the candles were lit, they lie in all the pools, pale faces 423 00:29:24.320 --> 00:29:27.360 deep, deep under the dark water. 424 00:29:28.040 --> 00:29:35.500 I saw them, grim faces and evil, and noble faces and sad faces, many faces, 425 00:29:35.900 --> 00:29:42.180 proud and fair, and weeds in their silver hair, but all foul, all rotting, all 426 00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:42.600 dead. 427 00:29:43.520 --> 00:29:45.120 A fell light is in them. 428 00:29:45.800 --> 00:29:47.560 Rearrange that, it becomes a poem. 429 00:29:48.040 --> 00:29:58.000 Repetition, the sense of internal rhymes is one of his heightened moments that 430 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.940 Tolkien gives in description through the voice of Frodo. 431 00:30:01.780 --> 00:30:03.940 And it's interesting that Gollum picks it up. 432 00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:08.720 It feels almost a bit like a Greek play with the chorus coming in, if Gollum 433 00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:09.960 can be thought of as the chorus. 434 00:30:10.540 --> 00:30:12.660 He goes, yes, yes, all dead, all rotten. 435 00:30:12.840 --> 00:30:16.420 He sort of re-echoes what the hero has just said. 436 00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:18.900 Elves and men and orcs are dead marshes. 437 00:30:19.180 --> 00:30:21.340 There was a great battle long ago and so on. 438 00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:27.500 And he gives this echo of what Frodo has said, an explanation of where they 439 00:30:27.500 --> 00:30:28.200 came from. 440 00:30:29.040 --> 00:30:36.300 And then he moves into a typical Gollum moment of having tried to reach them. 441 00:30:36.540 --> 00:30:38.060 Sam suspects he tried to eat them. 442 00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:41.760 Remember, there's this theme of who's food for whom in this chapter. 443 00:30:42.600 --> 00:30:48.980 And then he ends with this weird off-color note of Gollum the jester, where he 444 00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:54.380 says that if the hobbits aren't careful, they will go down and join them and 445 00:30:54.380 --> 00:30:56.220 light little candles. 446 00:30:57.640 --> 00:30:59.560 Don't look at the lights. 447 00:31:00.760 --> 00:31:05.520 So I suppose I added Greek chorus to the list of things that Gollum is doing in 448 00:31:05.520 --> 00:31:05.980 this chapter. 449 00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:09.880 At this point, we get the overflight of one of the ringwraiths. 450 00:31:10.360 --> 00:31:17.060 And I mentioned how in this world building, Tolkien is trying to connect this 451 00:31:17.060 --> 00:31:18.200 to the other stories. 452 00:31:18.740 --> 00:31:21.500 He found that his chronology was out of sync. 453 00:31:22.120 --> 00:31:24.720 We know the ring goes into the fire on the 25th of March. 454 00:31:24.820 --> 00:31:26.420 We're now right at the beginning of March. 455 00:31:26.500 --> 00:31:27.460 He hasn't got long really. 456 00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:31.920 And the events don't quite link up. 457 00:31:32.100 --> 00:31:38.940 So what we get instead is an overflight which then goes back into Mordor. 458 00:31:39.740 --> 00:31:44.080 I think a reader will anyway make the connection because they have just come 459 00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:48.520 out of reading a book where the ringwraiths appeared a couple of times in the 460 00:31:48.520 --> 00:31:51.060 air, scaring those characters. 461 00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:58.120 And perhaps it's more like thinking about a general air service, like in the 462 00:31:58.120 --> 00:32:03.840 Second World War, when you heard the drone of the approaching Luftwaffe. 463 00:32:04.360 --> 00:32:06.820 It didn't really matter if it was the same plane as your friend saw. 464 00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:14.600 It's the same overflight, the same sense of threat coming from the evil nation 465 00:32:14.600 --> 00:32:21.940 with the risk of being discovered or destroyed if spotted. 466 00:32:23.740 --> 00:32:28.220 And of course, this must have felt very close to what Tolkien was experiencing 467 00:32:28.220 --> 00:32:33.220 at the time because he was on fire watch as an air raid warden at this time. 468 00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:36.800 And he's writing this in Oxford because of the fear that there would be a 469 00:32:36.800 --> 00:32:38.660 bombing campaign in Oxford. 470 00:32:39.820 --> 00:32:45.160 So after the ringwraiths overflow, there is a shift in everybody's 471 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:46.440 relationship. 472 00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:48.220 Remember this triangle? 473 00:32:49.260 --> 00:32:52.560 This is what this chapter is about, this triangle of relationships. 474 00:32:53.760 --> 00:32:59.380 Gollum becomes more fawning and less reliable in some ways because he's been 475 00:32:59.380 --> 00:33:00.520 reminded of the threat. 476 00:33:01.380 --> 00:33:07.600 Frodo becomes silent, lost in this nightmarish world that he's in, and he's 477 00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:08.100 vanishing. 478 00:33:09.060 --> 00:33:13.020 The idea that he is getting a foothold in the wraith world. 479 00:33:14.280 --> 00:33:21.120 And it is shown here by him becoming, well, no longer driving what's happening. 480 00:33:22.620 --> 00:33:27.080 Sam puts him in front of him because he's worried he's going to stumble off the 481 00:33:27.080 --> 00:33:28.260 path or just stop walking. 482 00:33:28.800 --> 00:33:30.600 And we get a very sudden shift. 483 00:33:31.520 --> 00:33:35.040 I think it's the only one in this chapter where we suddenly move to the point 484 00:33:35.040 --> 00:33:40.320 of view of Frodo, where we hear how heavy the ring is feeling, how he is 485 00:33:40.320 --> 00:33:45.040 obsessed or feels invigilated by the eye watching him. 486 00:33:46.560 --> 00:33:53.380 And there is another psychological battle going on here, which is really where 487 00:33:53.380 --> 00:33:54.640 it's being fought for Frodo. 488 00:33:54.800 --> 00:33:58.740 It's internal, as well as the external struggle, his is internal. 489 00:33:59.860 --> 00:34:02.020 And we get a little glimpse of that here. 490 00:34:03.080 --> 00:34:05.020 But we do return back to Sam. 491 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:11.440 So we reach almost the last part of this chapter, which is the pit. 492 00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:17.179 So they're coming out of the marshes and it becomes a landscape which is 493 00:34:17.179 --> 00:34:19.780 described a lot in terms of how it affects the throat. 494 00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:23.340 First World War, of course, used poison gas. 495 00:34:24.139 --> 00:34:26.520 And I feel there's an echo of this here. 496 00:34:26.980 --> 00:34:27.940 There's a bitter reek. 497 00:34:28.500 --> 00:34:29.880 Their mouths are parched. 498 00:34:30.179 --> 00:34:33.340 They've been a long way since they had fresh good water. 499 00:34:34.820 --> 00:34:37.159 And it's called No Man's Land. 500 00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:42.480 That is a First World War term as well, No Man's Land, written slightly 501 00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:42.880 different. 502 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:47.560 But No Man's Land is what Tolkien decided to call it. 503 00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:52.980 And remember, I've talked about the paper chain of you thought that was bad, 504 00:34:53.060 --> 00:34:53.900 this is worse. 505 00:34:54.520 --> 00:34:57.520 Here, that's what they're thinking. 506 00:34:57.680 --> 00:35:03.960 The land in front of Mordor, like the desolation of Smaug in the Hobbit, this 507 00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:04.520 is worse. 508 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:13.640 The area in front of Mordor is worse because in the marshes, there's this 509 00:35:13.640 --> 00:35:17.260 beautiful phrase, there was a haggard phantom of green spring. 510 00:35:17.660 --> 00:35:19.740 Something was growing there despite everything. 511 00:35:20.700 --> 00:35:22.880 But here nothing lived. 512 00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:26.820 And even the sunlight was defiled. 513 00:35:28.220 --> 00:35:33.280 And the characters are described as little squeaking ghosts that wandered among 514 00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:35.660 the ash heaps of the Dark Lord. 515 00:35:36.200 --> 00:35:42.520 It does remind me of First World War poems, Wilfred Owen, that kind of image of 516 00:35:42.520 --> 00:35:48.060 the small person lost in the No Man's Land in the nightmare world. 517 00:35:49.200 --> 00:35:54.900 They retreat to the pit, which is described as a foul sump of oily many 518 00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:56.040 -coloured ooze. 519 00:35:56.200 --> 00:36:03.260 Now, I think this is definitely a First World War image because the oil, of 520 00:36:03.260 --> 00:36:09.660 course, machinery of war, the tanks and so on, artillery, is one of the most 521 00:36:09.660 --> 00:36:13.360 obvious sources of an oily ooze and sump is an oil sump. 522 00:36:13.540 --> 00:36:18.240 So, it's laying underneath this, though of course, you can get a natural world 523 00:36:18.240 --> 00:36:19.120 oily sheen. 524 00:36:20.540 --> 00:36:25.020 And we're not wrong to think that because in a 1968 interview quoted in the 525 00:36:25.020 --> 00:36:32.200 Companion Guide, Tolkien told the Birmingham Post that he remembered miles and 526 00:36:32.200 --> 00:36:39.340 miles of seething, tortured earth, perhaps best described in the chapter about 527 00:36:39.340 --> 00:36:40.780 the approaches to Mordor. 528 00:36:41.560 --> 00:36:43.900 It was a searing experience. 529 00:36:44.240 --> 00:36:46.680 That's what he remembers of northern France. 530 00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:51.360 For northern France, read the land just in front of Mordor. 531 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:58.460 And he goes on to say in this text that the gully now seemed a place of peace 532 00:36:58.460 --> 00:36:59.340 and beauty. 533 00:36:59.540 --> 00:37:05.100 So, we've gone from the marshes seeming a haggard spring to that gully where 534 00:37:05.100 --> 00:37:11.780 they got fresh water being relatively idyllic compared to this. 535 00:37:12.500 --> 00:37:15.980 So, when you're creating a world, don't forget to use the elements within the 536 00:37:15.980 --> 00:37:20.500 world to push the experience from bad to worse to even worse. 537 00:37:21.160 --> 00:37:23.680 It's a very effective strategy. 538 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:27.740 Then we get the great Gollum and Smeagol debate. 539 00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:29.700 It's interesting here. 540 00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:35.100 I mean, made famous by the film, brilliantly done, brilliantly read, obviously 541 00:37:35.100 --> 00:37:40.140 by Andy Serkis in the audio version, but also reads brilliantly if you're just 542 00:37:40.140 --> 00:37:40.800 reading the book. 543 00:37:41.720 --> 00:37:44.880 One of the things that is interesting in this sort of almost like political 544 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:49.540 debate and sort of trying to persuade himself to do something to break his word 545 00:37:49.540 --> 00:37:50.840 to Frodo. 546 00:37:51.560 --> 00:37:57.620 One of the interesting things here is what it reveals about Gollum is what he 547 00:37:57.620 --> 00:37:59.480 thinks he would do with power. 548 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:06.720 There is an element of innocence, childlike, toddlerlike innocence to Gollum, 549 00:38:06.980 --> 00:38:12.520 which is part of his tragedy because what he wants to do with the power is not 550 00:38:12.520 --> 00:38:13.260 be hurt. 551 00:38:14.160 --> 00:38:18.040 He wants to be strong in the way that someone who is bullied wants to be 552 00:38:18.040 --> 00:38:18.380 strong. 553 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:24.340 What he thinks is the best life he could live is having lots of fish. 554 00:38:26.420 --> 00:38:30.160 So, his wants are relatively innocent. 555 00:38:31.890 --> 00:38:34.550 Well, within Gollum terms, that is. 556 00:38:35.510 --> 00:38:43.070 And he does here sound like a drug addict, desperate for the next fix of the 557 00:38:43.070 --> 00:38:46.810 precious, which is why he isn't going to be reliable. 558 00:38:47.070 --> 00:38:51.270 He can't keep his word because he is not reformed. 559 00:38:53.290 --> 00:38:58.250 And also in this, when you're thinking about planting seeds for future 560 00:38:58.250 --> 00:39:04.890 chapters, Tolkien drops in here the mysterious she who might help him. 561 00:39:05.750 --> 00:39:11.570 Unanswered questions are one reason to make a reader move on. 562 00:39:11.670 --> 00:39:15.850 You want to find out why something is happening or what it's referring to. 563 00:39:16.730 --> 00:39:19.330 And this is one of those times where he just drops it in. 564 00:39:19.970 --> 00:39:21.030 Who is this she? 565 00:39:21.210 --> 00:39:22.110 That's Sam's thought. 566 00:39:22.990 --> 00:39:26.610 But he can't wait to find an answer because Frodo is at risk. 567 00:39:27.850 --> 00:39:32.590 And he pretends to wake up so that Gollum moves back from Frodo. 568 00:39:33.430 --> 00:39:40.090 And there's a sort of change in mood here from Frodo, who is refreshed for 569 00:39:40.090 --> 00:39:42.310 once, feels he's coming to an end. 570 00:39:42.470 --> 00:39:45.670 He's almost like, okay, almost near the gates, right, you know, won't be long 571 00:39:45.670 --> 00:39:46.550 now kind of thing. 572 00:39:47.110 --> 00:39:53.310 And in a way, this refers back to what Tolkien had thought in his letters to 573 00:39:53.310 --> 00:39:53.650 Christopher. 574 00:39:53.890 --> 00:39:57.890 He vastly underestimates how much narrative he's got to go. 575 00:39:59.250 --> 00:40:03.010 So perhaps he's having a little joke at his own expense here of saying, oh 576 00:40:03.010 --> 00:40:04.690 yeah, you thought you almost finished, did you? 577 00:40:05.810 --> 00:40:08.130 So Frodo is standing in front of the author here. 578 00:40:09.210 --> 00:40:12.010 But there is another presence here. 579 00:40:12.690 --> 00:40:16.870 There's a third overflight of one of the ringways at this point, which really 580 00:40:16.870 --> 00:40:18.550 spooks Gollum. 581 00:40:19.910 --> 00:40:27.730 And this particular chapter ends with a kind of forced march where they have to 582 00:40:27.730 --> 00:40:29.630 make Gollum move on. 583 00:40:29.750 --> 00:40:34.030 Frodo has to get stern with him because he doesn't know who he's more scared 584 00:40:34.030 --> 00:40:40.150 of, breaking his word, the ringwraiths, Mordor in front of him, memories of the 585 00:40:40.150 --> 00:40:40.510 past. 586 00:40:40.630 --> 00:40:43.570 He is a tortured soul, clearly. 587 00:40:45.610 --> 00:40:49.550 And this is reflected in the weary end of this chapter. 588 00:40:50.010 --> 00:40:56.950 It ends in a sort of ominous, eerie silence where they're left hearing nothing 589 00:40:56.950 --> 00:40:59.730 but the wind hissing in their ears. 590 00:41:00.970 --> 00:41:06.970 And that takes us right up to the gates of Mordor, where if you're reading for 591 00:41:06.970 --> 00:41:11.910 the first time, you might think you're almost there, but there's a lot more to 592 00:41:11.910 --> 00:41:12.750 come, isn't there? 593 00:41:13.710 --> 00:41:16.970 So I hope you've enjoyed the passage of the marshes. 594 00:41:17.450 --> 00:41:22.610 And I look forward to returning to chapter three to see what happens when the 595 00:41:22.610 --> 00:41:24.010 Black Gate is closed. 596 00:41:24.470 --> 00:41:27.050 We're actually coming to one of my favorite bits of the book. 597 00:41:27.770 --> 00:41:32.790 And amongst all the darkness, there is a wonderful moment of light. 598 00:41:33.850 --> 00:41:35.250 Thank you very much for listening. 599 00:41:40.240 --> 00:41:45.340 Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought to you by the Oxford 600 00:41:45.340 --> 00:41:46.520 Centre 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