1 00:00:04.640 --> 00:00:07.320 Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. 2 00:00:07.540 --> 00:00:10.660 Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans 3 00:00:10.660 --> 00:00:13.260 and fantasy creatives brought to you by the 4 00:00:13.260 --> 00:00:14.740 Oxford Centre for Fantasy. 5 00:00:15.280 --> 00:00:16.820 My name is Julia Golding. 6 00:00:17.340 --> 00:00:20.160 Now I am continuing a series where we 7 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.280 read our way through the Lord of the 8 00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:23.860 Rings chapter by chapter. 9 00:00:24.520 --> 00:00:26.800 And today it's an exciting new start because 10 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:28.800 we are halfway through the two hours. 11 00:00:29.260 --> 00:00:32.400 We've reached book four and this is where 12 00:00:32.400 --> 00:00:35.120 the story flips back to see what Frodo 13 00:00:35.120 --> 00:00:37.400 and Sam have been up to whilst the 14 00:00:37.400 --> 00:00:39.780 other members of the Fellowship have been in 15 00:00:39.780 --> 00:00:41.440 mostly in Rohan. 16 00:00:42.180 --> 00:00:45.520 And we are at chapter one, The Taming 17 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:46.700 of Smeagol. 18 00:00:47.760 --> 00:00:49.620 And when we're doing this, we're looking at 19 00:00:49.620 --> 00:00:51.200 what the author is doing. 20 00:00:51.620 --> 00:00:54.180 So we're looking at the choices made by 21 00:00:54.180 --> 00:00:56.860 Tolkien from a sort of literary point of 22 00:00:56.860 --> 00:01:00.420 view as he's writing this long epic work. 23 00:01:01.020 --> 00:01:04.160 So this chapter has three main sections. 24 00:01:04.720 --> 00:01:08.800 It starts with catching up with Frodo and 25 00:01:08.800 --> 00:01:11.440 Sam who are lost on the Emyn Muil. 26 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.920 And then there's an episode where they're on 27 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:17.680 the edge of a cliff and they're climbing 28 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:18.240 down. 29 00:01:18.720 --> 00:01:20.380 This is where the elven rope comes in 30 00:01:20.380 --> 00:01:20.660 useful. 31 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:23.220 And then finally, it's when we meet one 32 00:01:23.220 --> 00:01:25.740 of the most fascinating characters in all of 33 00:01:25.740 --> 00:01:26.240 fantasy. 34 00:01:27.100 --> 00:01:28.700 So, you know, hold on to your hats 35 00:01:28.700 --> 00:01:29.140 for that. 36 00:01:29.960 --> 00:01:31.660 That is, of course, Gollum. 37 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:35.200 Though because the chapter is called The Taming 38 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.500 of Smeagol, perhaps we should call him Smeagol. 39 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:40.040 So let's have a look at what's going 40 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:40.340 on. 41 00:01:40.720 --> 00:01:42.760 This is one of the chapters that starts 42 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:46.020 with dialogue and it throws you straight in. 43 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:49.640 So it starts with Sam saying, well, master, 44 00:01:49.980 --> 00:01:51.920 we're in a fixer, no mistake. 45 00:01:52.420 --> 00:01:55.940 So we're immediately right in the middle of 46 00:01:55.940 --> 00:01:59.600 the problem that they're facing, which is they 47 00:01:59.600 --> 00:02:03.000 can't get to where they need to go. 48 00:02:03.080 --> 00:02:04.540 They can see it, but they can't get 49 00:02:04.540 --> 00:02:04.860 there. 50 00:02:05.620 --> 00:02:07.539 One of the things that strikes me about 51 00:02:07.539 --> 00:02:12.720 this chapter, after the colourful scenes in Rohan, 52 00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:17.180 the battles, the Ents, the Palantir, the dramatic 53 00:02:17.180 --> 00:02:21.920 showdown with Saruman, this chapter is all about 54 00:02:21.920 --> 00:02:24.020 frustration and confusion. 55 00:02:24.640 --> 00:02:28.680 It's unlikely, I think, to be many people's 56 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:31.380 favourite chapter, unless they like it because of 57 00:02:31.380 --> 00:02:36.700 the introduction of Smeagol slash Gollum, because it 58 00:02:36.700 --> 00:02:40.920 is frustrating and a bit confusing to read 59 00:02:40.920 --> 00:02:45.000 because, well, they are in a huge rocky 60 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:46.880 landscape and they are lost. 61 00:02:47.140 --> 00:02:48.840 And in a way, with the repetition of 62 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:53.520 the words for the small scale stone formations, 63 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:56.280 the gullies, the cracks, the fissures, it is 64 00:02:56.280 --> 00:03:00.400 quite difficult to get a grasp of what 65 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:01.420 they're surrounded by. 66 00:03:01.420 --> 00:03:05.560 Unlike other places, which Tolkien describes in full, 67 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:08.000 the description here seems to just pile on 68 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:08.900 the confusion. 69 00:03:09.760 --> 00:03:11.900 And that, I think, is intentional. 70 00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:16.260 But we do get the overwhelming mood of 71 00:03:16.260 --> 00:03:17.860 this whole chapter. 72 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:20.580 There's a couple of areas of fun and 73 00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:24.500 hilarity and lightness, but mainly it's this sense 74 00:03:24.500 --> 00:03:28.540 of ominous, foreboding. 75 00:03:29.020 --> 00:03:30.300 That's what's going on here. 76 00:03:31.440 --> 00:03:33.940 And this particular sentence near the beginning sort 77 00:03:33.940 --> 00:03:35.260 of sums it up for me. 78 00:03:35.780 --> 00:03:39.160 Night was gathering over the shapeless lands before 79 00:03:39.160 --> 00:03:39.500 them. 80 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:42.020 Note they're shapeless, you can't grasp them. 81 00:03:42.980 --> 00:03:45.800 The sickly green of them was fading to 82 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:46.860 a sullen brown. 83 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:50.380 So the palette of this is greys, greens, 84 00:03:50.580 --> 00:03:53.920 browns, and at night, obviously, black. 85 00:03:54.340 --> 00:03:57.760 So it's unpleasant, it's cold, it's damp, it's 86 00:03:57.760 --> 00:03:58.260 miserable. 87 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:03.240 And in a sense, as so often with 88 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.640 Tolkien, the landscape is a reflection of the 89 00:04:06.640 --> 00:04:08.560 state of that part of their quest. 90 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.920 The landscape is this, what they call the 91 00:04:13.920 --> 00:04:17.500 pathetic fallacy, where something external seems to reflect 92 00:04:17.500 --> 00:04:18.500 something internal. 93 00:04:19.220 --> 00:04:21.100 Though, of course, in this case, the landscape 94 00:04:21.100 --> 00:04:24.560 is also producing that feeling of confusion and 95 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:25.280 being lost. 96 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:29.680 Looking at what they're talking about, we get 97 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:33.120 the repetition of the word fix, that you're 98 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:33.680 in a fix. 99 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:35.960 That's quite a colloquial word for a dilemma 100 00:04:35.960 --> 00:04:38.140 or a puzzle. 101 00:04:39.260 --> 00:04:41.520 But Sammy's very good at summing it up 102 00:04:41.520 --> 00:04:45.440 in good commoner garden phrasing. 103 00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:47.620 So he's saying, we're in a fix, we 104 00:04:47.620 --> 00:04:48.780 can't get to Mordor. 105 00:04:48.860 --> 00:04:50.780 That's the one place in all the lands 106 00:04:50.780 --> 00:04:53.100 we've ever heard of that we don't want 107 00:04:53.100 --> 00:04:54.440 to see any closer. 108 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:57.820 And that's the one place we're trying to 109 00:04:57.820 --> 00:04:58.280 get to. 110 00:04:58.940 --> 00:05:00.860 So the dialogue here is doing a useful 111 00:05:00.860 --> 00:05:04.540 task of just reminding us of what's at 112 00:05:04.540 --> 00:05:07.560 stake for these two, what their motivation is. 113 00:05:08.960 --> 00:05:11.400 And I think it's interesting because we're now 114 00:05:11.400 --> 00:05:14.500 in a scenario which we haven't had since, 115 00:05:15.380 --> 00:05:19.180 well, some very early conversations with Frodo and 116 00:05:19.180 --> 00:05:19.500 Sam. 117 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:21.640 They've always had other people around them on 118 00:05:21.640 --> 00:05:22.080 the whole. 119 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:24.020 It's been a few moments when they're on 120 00:05:24.020 --> 00:05:27.100 their own, particularly at the end of Fellowship. 121 00:05:27.540 --> 00:05:30.120 But here, they're going to be a long 122 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:32.260 stretch when it's the two of them relying 123 00:05:32.260 --> 00:05:32.940 on each other. 124 00:05:33.500 --> 00:05:36.100 And we get this balance between the two. 125 00:05:36.280 --> 00:05:38.560 We've got Sam sort of stepping forward and 126 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:42.220 becoming more voluble, more of a character in 127 00:05:42.220 --> 00:05:42.840 some sense. 128 00:05:42.940 --> 00:05:44.320 He holds more of the page. 129 00:05:44.960 --> 00:05:47.380 But we've also got an element of quietness, 130 00:05:47.540 --> 00:05:51.880 firmness and withholding to Frodo, which begins at 131 00:05:51.880 --> 00:05:52.580 this point. 132 00:05:53.100 --> 00:05:54.920 In a way, he begins to slip away 133 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:55.520 from us. 134 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:58.080 And as we get further and further into 135 00:05:58.080 --> 00:06:00.440 the story, as the ring gets a bigger 136 00:06:00.440 --> 00:06:03.220 hold on him, there is a sort of 137 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:04.520 erosion of Frodo. 138 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:07.540 And this is some of the places where 139 00:06:07.540 --> 00:06:09.580 it just begins to creep in. 140 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:11.900 It's a very slow, it's a dimmer switch 141 00:06:11.900 --> 00:06:13.520 effect. 142 00:06:13.640 --> 00:06:14.740 It's not a sudden break. 143 00:06:16.260 --> 00:06:17.880 And also, I thought it was quite funny 144 00:06:17.880 --> 00:06:22.080 that we get Sam channeling Macbeth. 145 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:29.500 Because in answer to Frodo's sort of half 146 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:32.200 upbeat thing saying, well, perhaps another day will 147 00:06:32.200 --> 00:06:33.020 show us a path. 148 00:06:33.700 --> 00:06:37.120 We got Sam saying, or another, and another, 149 00:06:37.380 --> 00:06:38.060 and another. 150 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:42.640 And that is the most famous three-part 151 00:06:42.640 --> 00:06:46.140 thing of that kind, is a similar thought. 152 00:06:46.280 --> 00:06:48.940 It's Macbeth's tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. 153 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:53.340 I think it's, well, maybe it's, I think 154 00:06:53.340 --> 00:06:55.080 it's slightly accidental, but it made me laugh 155 00:06:55.080 --> 00:06:58.220 to think that there's an echo of Macbeth 156 00:06:58.220 --> 00:06:59.240 in Sam. 157 00:06:59.300 --> 00:07:02.360 And we do know, Macbeth was in Tolkien's 158 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.080 thoughts, particularly in the chapters on the Ents 159 00:07:05.080 --> 00:07:07.200 going to Isengard. 160 00:07:07.340 --> 00:07:09.600 So it's not a totally wild association. 161 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:14.120 But compared to Sam, who is in a 162 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:19.200 way still fretting and struggling against his fate, 163 00:07:19.740 --> 00:07:23.640 Frodo is notably quieter and accepting. 164 00:07:24.440 --> 00:07:27.940 Because his answer is, it's my doom, I 165 00:07:27.940 --> 00:07:31.460 think, to go to that shadow yonder, so 166 00:07:31.460 --> 00:07:33.500 that a way will be found. 167 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.780 But will good or evil show it to 168 00:07:36.780 --> 00:07:37.020 me? 169 00:07:38.280 --> 00:07:40.580 It is in a way, I think, that 170 00:07:40.580 --> 00:07:42.640 in itself is almost like a summary of 171 00:07:42.640 --> 00:07:46.140 Frodo's dilemma all during this book. 172 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:50.980 And we've got doom here meant as your 173 00:07:50.980 --> 00:07:55.280 fate, not as something which is inevitably a 174 00:07:55.280 --> 00:07:57.740 bad thing, not a doom in that sense. 175 00:07:58.180 --> 00:07:59.920 But it's the idea of fate. 176 00:08:01.900 --> 00:08:04.040 And that idea is, will good or evil 177 00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:07.840 show it to me, is echoed throughout the 178 00:08:07.840 --> 00:08:08.100 story. 179 00:08:08.180 --> 00:08:09.200 We're going to hear it again. 180 00:08:09.520 --> 00:08:11.700 But it's the idea that even the wise 181 00:08:11.700 --> 00:08:15.000 cannot see what part might be played by 182 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:16.500 characters who seem evil. 183 00:08:16.700 --> 00:08:19.620 Sometimes they are part of the solution that 184 00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:21.020 actually produces the good. 185 00:08:23.200 --> 00:08:25.380 Other echoes, this is actually a very echoey 186 00:08:25.380 --> 00:08:25.900 chapter. 187 00:08:26.740 --> 00:08:29.500 Because there is an echo here of Aragorn 188 00:08:29.500 --> 00:08:30.740 in what Frodo says. 189 00:08:32.400 --> 00:08:37.860 This is happening contemporaneously to Aragorn regretting his 190 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:41.980 choices when the Fellowship is broken, because we've 191 00:08:41.980 --> 00:08:44.580 gone back to more or less that point 192 00:08:44.580 --> 00:08:47.000 three days in after that moment. 193 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:51.240 And Frodo says, all my choices have proved 194 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:54.500 ill, which is very much what Aragorn was 195 00:08:54.500 --> 00:08:59.880 saying when they find Boromir dead and both 196 00:08:59.880 --> 00:09:03.860 of the hobbits taken, Merry and Pippin taken. 197 00:09:05.020 --> 00:09:07.640 But there's also this irony at play here, 198 00:09:07.660 --> 00:09:10.720 because we've seen that Aragorn's choices have in 199 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:13.820 fact ended up with the overthrow of Saruman 200 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:16.640 in a roundabout way. 201 00:09:17.140 --> 00:09:21.600 I think Gandalf describes the hobbits like pebbles 202 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:22.940 starting an avalanche. 203 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:27.260 So we may be thinking as readers, hoping 204 00:09:27.260 --> 00:09:30.380 for a happy ending of some sort, that 205 00:09:30.380 --> 00:09:35.900 it is the choices that seem ill might 206 00:09:35.900 --> 00:09:37.080 actually produce the good. 207 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:40.720 And of course, what this chapter is really 208 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:44.620 about, and in some ways, it is as 209 00:09:44.620 --> 00:09:48.020 important as the chapter when Frodo chooses to 210 00:09:48.020 --> 00:09:50.880 take the ring coming out of the Council 211 00:09:50.880 --> 00:09:51.440 of Elrond. 212 00:09:51.900 --> 00:09:54.480 It's his decision he takes about Gollum's fate 213 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:56.860 that actually decides the fate of the nation, 214 00:09:57.040 --> 00:09:57.840 the fate of the world. 215 00:09:59.040 --> 00:10:01.160 So what is the conversation doing here? 216 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:05.460 The interesting thing about these Frodo and Sam 217 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:08.780 chapters like this is that there is less 218 00:10:08.780 --> 00:10:12.200 description on the whole, and more conversation taking 219 00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:16.140 the role of a sort of narratorial intervention. 220 00:10:16.640 --> 00:10:21.300 Because the conversation reiterates the stakes, recaps the 221 00:10:21.300 --> 00:10:25.460 situation, we catch up on the state of 222 00:10:25.460 --> 00:10:26.540 mind of the characters. 223 00:10:26.820 --> 00:10:30.040 We also are reminded of the contrast in 224 00:10:30.040 --> 00:10:33.840 this world, referring to the sort of homeliness 225 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.020 of the way they behave with each other. 226 00:10:37.060 --> 00:10:38.780 Sam is comparing Lembas. 227 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:42.940 He'd like some beer. 228 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:44.220 He wants to go down the pub rather 229 00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:45.340 than be stuck in this place. 230 00:10:45.980 --> 00:10:47.620 I imagine that's a conversation that would have 231 00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:48.940 been had in the trenches. 232 00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:51.820 No matter what came in the rations, they 233 00:10:51.820 --> 00:10:52.960 all prefer to be back home. 234 00:10:54.420 --> 00:10:57.520 And there's a clear sense they are two 235 00:10:57.520 --> 00:11:01.460 little hobbits carrying the Shire into the opposite 236 00:11:01.460 --> 00:11:02.840 of the Shire landscape. 237 00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:05.460 So all of that is done in the 238 00:11:05.460 --> 00:11:05.960 dialogue. 239 00:11:07.420 --> 00:11:10.740 Moving on, there is a remarkable number of 240 00:11:10.740 --> 00:11:13.780 words in this chapter to do with this 241 00:11:13.780 --> 00:11:15.280 broken stony landscape. 242 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:17.300 We've got gullies, we've got stones, we've got 243 00:11:17.300 --> 00:11:20.140 cliffs, we've got fissures, we've got rocks, we've 244 00:11:20.140 --> 00:11:24.180 got stunted trees. 245 00:11:24.280 --> 00:11:25.000 It's all there. 246 00:11:26.060 --> 00:11:29.940 And it is a landscape which is the 247 00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:32.600 most hostile that you can imagine to a 248 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:33.960 sort of barefoot hobbit. 249 00:11:36.010 --> 00:11:39.190 They are stuck and they come to the 250 00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:41.790 conclusion that the only way forward is to 251 00:11:41.790 --> 00:11:43.570 risk climbing down a cliff. 252 00:11:44.190 --> 00:11:46.990 And here it gives a chance for the 253 00:11:46.990 --> 00:11:49.970 hobbits contrasting characters to be shown. 254 00:11:50.110 --> 00:11:51.930 And that's one of the roles of action, 255 00:11:52.030 --> 00:11:54.310 these smaller pieces of action, which aren't the 256 00:11:54.310 --> 00:11:55.190 set piece battles. 257 00:11:55.710 --> 00:11:59.550 What someone does when facing an obstacle reveals 258 00:11:59.550 --> 00:12:00.610 who they are really. 259 00:12:01.190 --> 00:12:06.840 And you've got Sam's foolish bravery set against 260 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:07.240 Frodo. 261 00:12:07.300 --> 00:12:09.300 He's also courageous, but he is more deliberate. 262 00:12:09.640 --> 00:12:10.620 He has the skills. 263 00:12:11.020 --> 00:12:11.860 He's very competent. 264 00:12:12.260 --> 00:12:13.960 He's shown as competent in this chapter. 265 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.800 And also, he wants to actually take some 266 00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:19.800 time to think about things, whereas Sam will 267 00:12:19.800 --> 00:12:20.740 say, I'll go first. 268 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:25.420 And this discussion about how they're going to 269 00:12:25.420 --> 00:12:30.060 go about it with Frodo making free climbing 270 00:12:30.060 --> 00:12:33.620 his way down this cliff is suddenly cut 271 00:12:33.620 --> 00:12:33.940 short. 272 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.380 And that's the word that's given, cut short. 273 00:12:36.680 --> 00:12:38.780 And then there's a dramatic line break. 274 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:41.560 We've looked at the role of line breaks 275 00:12:41.560 --> 00:12:44.200 earlier in Two Towers. 276 00:12:44.280 --> 00:12:45.560 And this is one of the ones which 277 00:12:45.560 --> 00:12:48.900 really does punctuate it because we've got the 278 00:12:48.900 --> 00:12:51.880 drama of the line break as a sudden 279 00:12:51.880 --> 00:12:54.400 onset of both a sort of lightning storm 280 00:12:54.400 --> 00:12:57.880 and an overflight high up of a black 281 00:12:57.880 --> 00:12:59.340 rider on a Nazgul. 282 00:13:00.040 --> 00:13:02.480 And this causes Frodo to lose his grip 283 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:04.400 and to fall a short distance. 284 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:08.300 If you look at how this is written, 285 00:13:10.140 --> 00:13:12.120 Tolkien goes on to write the next bit 286 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:16.580 where they are recovering from that fight as 287 00:13:16.580 --> 00:13:20.280 quickly tossing between the points of view of 288 00:13:20.280 --> 00:13:21.480 both Sam and Frodo. 289 00:13:21.900 --> 00:13:24.200 Now, one of the early pieces of editorial 290 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.440 feedback I got right at the beginning of 291 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:28.620 my career from an American editor is don't 292 00:13:28.620 --> 00:13:29.300 jump heads. 293 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:31.580 Tolkien does jump heads. 294 00:13:31.820 --> 00:13:33.260 It's possibly where I picked it up from. 295 00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:37.300 But here he's not doing it without thinking 296 00:13:37.300 --> 00:13:38.080 about it. 297 00:13:38.520 --> 00:13:41.440 He is doing it because he's showing how 298 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.480 this appears to Frodo and how this appears 299 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:45.500 to Sam. 300 00:13:45.660 --> 00:13:48.300 And it's very important that juxtaposition because one 301 00:13:48.300 --> 00:13:50.460 is stuck on a ledge, the other is 302 00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:50.860 above. 303 00:13:51.160 --> 00:13:54.680 So it's this dizzying sort of journey that 304 00:13:54.680 --> 00:13:56.640 reader is taken between the two. 305 00:13:58.540 --> 00:14:02.380 And of course, Frodo has gone blind temporarily. 306 00:14:02.380 --> 00:14:08.140 And it's into this that Sam, who is 307 00:14:08.140 --> 00:14:10.120 sometimes a bit slow on the uptake, remembers 308 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.020 his carrying rope. 309 00:14:12.400 --> 00:14:16.320 And there is nobody harsher than Sam on 310 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:16.840 himself. 311 00:14:17.040 --> 00:14:20.060 He calls himself a numbskull, a ninnyhammer, colloquial 312 00:14:20.060 --> 00:14:21.180 words for being dumb. 313 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:25.800 And it's hard to remember what it was 314 00:14:25.800 --> 00:14:27.640 like to first read this. 315 00:14:27.900 --> 00:14:31.580 But because the archetypal things that they take 316 00:14:31.580 --> 00:14:35.860 with them, the star glass, the cloaks, the 317 00:14:35.860 --> 00:14:37.560 lembas and so on, there is not that 318 00:14:37.560 --> 00:14:39.720 many items for a reader to remember. 319 00:14:40.620 --> 00:14:43.720 And the lack of rope and Sam picking 320 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:47.880 up some rope as they left Lothlorien was 321 00:14:47.880 --> 00:14:50.200 highlighted, that many a reader would have been 322 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:52.780 shouting at the book already, Sam, you idiot, 323 00:14:53.040 --> 00:14:54.100 it's in your pack. 324 00:14:54.800 --> 00:15:00.340 So anyway, Arty brings this wonderful artifact, which 325 00:15:00.340 --> 00:15:02.520 is the first, in fact, in this part 326 00:15:02.520 --> 00:15:06.660 of the two towers, because there are these 327 00:15:06.660 --> 00:15:10.480 key things that they're holding, be it the 328 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:12.740 cloak, be it the bread, be it the 329 00:15:12.740 --> 00:15:14.960 star glass, be it sting and so on, 330 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:16.140 that sort of have their moment. 331 00:15:16.700 --> 00:15:18.780 And this rope is the first of these 332 00:15:18.780 --> 00:15:21.720 given an extended role in this chapter. 333 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.640 And it becomes almost like a little character. 334 00:15:25.420 --> 00:15:27.280 And it comes down with a faint silver 335 00:15:27.280 --> 00:15:29.400 sheen, so that it lightens. 336 00:15:29.420 --> 00:15:32.320 The first things it does is it lightens 337 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:36.340 Frodo's vision, which had gone temporarily blind. 338 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:40.940 I think it's an interesting way to, when 339 00:15:40.940 --> 00:15:42.320 you've got a world that has a sort 340 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:44.120 of sense of a magical charge, and this 341 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:47.040 rope has an element of magic about it. 342 00:15:47.660 --> 00:15:49.440 If you imbue it with a sense of 343 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.140 its own identity and personality, people often do 344 00:15:52.140 --> 00:15:55.480 this with swords, of course, or weapons, it 345 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:56.740 gives it more charge. 346 00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:59.000 And it connects to the character, of course, 347 00:15:59.560 --> 00:16:01.800 who gave it to the hobbits in the 348 00:16:01.800 --> 00:16:05.580 first place, possibly Haldir, but certainly the elves. 349 00:16:07.020 --> 00:16:10.420 Another connection here is the one about the 350 00:16:10.420 --> 00:16:15.700 storm, because the it's described, the storm goes 351 00:16:15.700 --> 00:16:18.640 out beyond having passed over them, it goes 352 00:16:18.640 --> 00:16:20.920 out to Gondor and Rohan, sweeps around like 353 00:16:20.920 --> 00:16:21.320 that. 354 00:16:21.740 --> 00:16:25.280 And it's connecting the other parts of the 355 00:16:25.280 --> 00:16:26.440 story through the weather. 356 00:16:27.660 --> 00:16:32.400 Those names are checked, we know that the 357 00:16:32.400 --> 00:16:35.220 destination of the rest of the fellowship is 358 00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:38.980 Gondor, and currently in Rohan, so it connects 359 00:16:38.980 --> 00:16:42.260 the stories in that way, just subtly ringing 360 00:16:42.260 --> 00:16:43.240 that particular bell. 361 00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:46.100 And as it moves on, hope returns. 362 00:16:46.400 --> 00:16:48.960 We've got a nice sort of description of 363 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.080 the sky that underlines that. 364 00:16:51.580 --> 00:16:54.060 The deep blue sky of evening opened once 365 00:16:54.060 --> 00:16:57.200 more, and a few pallid stars appeared, like 366 00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:59.400 small white holes in the canopy above the 367 00:16:59.400 --> 00:17:00.000 crescent moon. 368 00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:05.859 This ever-presence of the stars is another 369 00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:09.720 very important theme which keeps being reiterated. 370 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:11.900 Of course, we're moving towards the most important 371 00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:13.880 of these, which comes later in The Return 372 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:14.380 of the King. 373 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.619 But let's note it here as being a 374 00:17:17.619 --> 00:17:20.819 sign of, yes, like the faint silvery light, 375 00:17:22.060 --> 00:17:24.900 there is a sense of beauty which the 376 00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:28.080 elven world represents in Middle-earth. 377 00:17:29.040 --> 00:17:33.020 If you're wondering about Elves, it's about 45 378 00:17:33.020 --> 00:17:33.720 inches. 379 00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:39.220 It was based on 45 inches is sort 380 00:17:39.220 --> 00:17:40.520 of like if you could pay out a 381 00:17:40.520 --> 00:17:43.560 rope, like stretch it out, fold it over, 382 00:17:43.660 --> 00:17:45.640 stretch it out, that was 45 inches was 383 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:49.360 like a man's sort of natural width. 384 00:17:50.500 --> 00:17:54.100 It might even be sort of from the 385 00:17:54.100 --> 00:17:55.560 top of the hand to the elbow. 386 00:17:55.700 --> 00:17:57.140 I was told that once, if you wrap 387 00:17:57.140 --> 00:18:00.800 it around that, that's a sort of 45 388 00:18:00.800 --> 00:18:04.160 inches, in the same way as a man's 389 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:08.420 foot was often 12 inches, like the measurement 390 00:18:08.420 --> 00:18:09.420 of the foot. 391 00:18:10.100 --> 00:18:11.860 I haven't worked out what it is in 392 00:18:11.860 --> 00:18:13.960 centimetres, but we don't want to put centimetres 393 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:15.540 into Middle-earth, do we? 394 00:18:15.580 --> 00:18:17.180 It's not the right measurement. 395 00:18:19.460 --> 00:18:21.320 And we follow on with much more conversation 396 00:18:21.320 --> 00:18:25.300 between the two of them, and with Sam's 397 00:18:25.300 --> 00:18:27.780 colloquialisms coming through. 398 00:18:28.760 --> 00:18:30.860 And do note here, he's very assertive, he's 399 00:18:30.860 --> 00:18:32.020 not at all obsequious. 400 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:35.160 And I think there's very often a misunderstanding 401 00:18:37.060 --> 00:18:40.000 of modern readers of what a master-servant 402 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.180 relationship was like. 403 00:18:42.520 --> 00:18:47.900 Certainly for Tolkien's generation, it wasn't regarded as 404 00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:50.100 being a lesser role to be someone's servant. 405 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:52.980 And of course, in a Christian context, which 406 00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:55.460 is Tolkien's background, being a servant is to 407 00:18:55.460 --> 00:18:58.400 be like Jesus, so clearly dignified. 408 00:18:59.860 --> 00:19:03.660 But if you think of other literary examples 409 00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:06.060 of master and servant, the Jeeves and the 410 00:19:06.060 --> 00:19:09.820 Worcester in the comic vein, being someone's servant 411 00:19:09.820 --> 00:19:11.900 doesn't mean that you're obsequious. 412 00:19:12.940 --> 00:19:17.780 In fact, obsequious servants are usually given very 413 00:19:17.780 --> 00:19:19.720 poor press in literature at the time. 414 00:19:19.820 --> 00:19:24.280 You think of Uriah Heep in David Copperfield, 415 00:19:24.580 --> 00:19:25.060 for example. 416 00:19:26.180 --> 00:19:27.760 And I'm sure this is what Tolkien felt 417 00:19:27.760 --> 00:19:30.720 about his relationship with the people who were 418 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.980 his batman or his valet in the trenches. 419 00:19:33.820 --> 00:19:38.020 It was a partnership coming from different social 420 00:19:38.020 --> 00:19:38.560 strata. 421 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:40.660 But we will see, of course, that Sam 422 00:19:40.660 --> 00:19:44.420 rises up the society of Middle-earth in 423 00:19:44.420 --> 00:19:47.920 terms of his social standing through his role 424 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:48.240 here. 425 00:19:49.300 --> 00:19:51.680 And the other thing that the conversation does 426 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:53.580 here is it does the scene setting very 427 00:19:53.580 --> 00:19:55.420 much like dialogue in a play. 428 00:19:57.190 --> 00:19:59.630 They say what you need to know about 429 00:19:59.630 --> 00:20:02.090 the state of the moon and so on. 430 00:20:02.150 --> 00:20:03.150 They're telling you this. 431 00:20:04.250 --> 00:20:06.610 And we also get here, I mentioned there's 432 00:20:06.610 --> 00:20:08.070 a few moments of comedy. 433 00:20:08.870 --> 00:20:12.470 The rope provides one of the main ones, 434 00:20:12.470 --> 00:20:15.310 which is once they're both safely down this 435 00:20:15.310 --> 00:20:19.770 cliff that they've got down, that they've descended, 436 00:20:20.910 --> 00:20:23.350 Sam regretfully gives a tug on the rope 437 00:20:23.350 --> 00:20:25.330 and it comes away. 438 00:20:26.070 --> 00:20:28.410 Sam fell over and the long grey coil 439 00:20:28.410 --> 00:20:30.650 slithered silently down on top of him. 440 00:20:32.170 --> 00:20:33.330 It's very visual. 441 00:20:33.450 --> 00:20:35.210 You can see it sort of just spiraling 442 00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:35.670 down. 443 00:20:36.590 --> 00:20:38.150 It has a personality, this rope. 444 00:20:38.730 --> 00:20:42.050 And this encourages Sam to make a connection 445 00:20:42.050 --> 00:20:45.530 between where they are now and his thoughts 446 00:20:45.530 --> 00:20:45.870 of home. 447 00:20:46.030 --> 00:20:48.690 Sam very often refers back to the shire. 448 00:20:49.150 --> 00:20:51.530 It's the touchstone for him, of course, as 449 00:20:51.530 --> 00:20:52.470 it is for Frodo. 450 00:20:52.670 --> 00:20:56.050 But Sam's references come from there mainly. 451 00:20:56.790 --> 00:20:59.310 And he talks about his Uncle Andy, who 452 00:20:59.310 --> 00:21:01.010 had a rope walk at Tyfield. 453 00:21:01.770 --> 00:21:07.550 Now, rope walk isn't something for acrobats, not 454 00:21:07.550 --> 00:21:08.370 that kind of rope walk. 455 00:21:08.790 --> 00:21:11.650 A rope walk was the name for a 456 00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:14.990 rope making factory because in order to make 457 00:21:14.990 --> 00:21:17.690 ropes for the Navy and others, you would 458 00:21:17.690 --> 00:21:21.790 have these long lengths being twisted between various 459 00:21:21.790 --> 00:21:23.250 points and you'd walk along them. 460 00:21:23.530 --> 00:21:25.750 Of course, it's a long, long, you need 461 00:21:25.750 --> 00:21:26.290 long ropes. 462 00:21:27.750 --> 00:21:31.610 Tyfield, obviously, Ty as a Tolkien's having fun 463 00:21:31.610 --> 00:21:35.550 with the idea of tying things in this 464 00:21:35.550 --> 00:21:35.910 field. 465 00:21:36.110 --> 00:21:39.550 So, there he is, threading it into his 466 00:21:39.550 --> 00:21:40.950 narrative in the names. 467 00:21:42.650 --> 00:21:45.890 And I'm with Sam because Frodo's not worried 468 00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:47.790 too much about why the rope comes down. 469 00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:50.550 But Sam really doesn't want either his rope 470 00:21:50.550 --> 00:21:54.610 skills, i.e. his not tying, or the 471 00:21:54.610 --> 00:21:57.090 elves, or the rope to be offended. 472 00:21:57.850 --> 00:21:59.570 He says, I think the rope came off 473 00:21:59.570 --> 00:22:01.070 itself when I called. 474 00:22:01.790 --> 00:22:04.350 So, that finishes that idea of the rope 475 00:22:04.350 --> 00:22:05.470 being like a little character. 476 00:22:08.040 --> 00:22:09.420 You would think that this would be the 477 00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:13.300 moment when they would have got through this 478 00:22:13.300 --> 00:22:13.800 obstacle. 479 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:16.620 And right, they're on their way. 480 00:22:17.060 --> 00:22:18.300 They're going to reach the marshes. 481 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:21.180 But no, I'd forgotten this until I was 482 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:21.900 reading it carefully. 483 00:22:21.940 --> 00:22:24.200 Because this isn't a chapter I often go 484 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:27.560 back to because of the confusion at the 485 00:22:27.560 --> 00:22:28.000 beginning. 486 00:22:29.120 --> 00:22:33.700 They're immediately turned back by arriving at another 487 00:22:33.700 --> 00:22:35.580 fissure, another gully. 488 00:22:36.520 --> 00:22:38.720 And this is a frustration of the chapter. 489 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.660 It doesn't proceed forwards, or at least not 490 00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:41.960 yet. 491 00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:44.360 And they have to more or less go 492 00:22:44.360 --> 00:22:46.280 back to the point where they climbed down. 493 00:22:47.020 --> 00:22:49.840 But this is one of those backward movements 494 00:22:49.840 --> 00:22:53.560 that proves an advance because it's there that 495 00:22:53.560 --> 00:22:56.580 they see Gollum approaching. 496 00:22:58.020 --> 00:23:02.080 There's a strange little exclamation from Sam here 497 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:06.480 when he's reacting to the sort of, you 498 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:07.840 know, having to go back. 499 00:23:08.380 --> 00:23:10.360 And that's snakes and adders. 500 00:23:11.560 --> 00:23:13.180 When I look, I think I've probably often 501 00:23:13.180 --> 00:23:16.260 read that in my skimming past as snakes 502 00:23:16.260 --> 00:23:18.600 and ladders, because that fits the idea that, 503 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:20.800 you know, you might climb up a ladder, 504 00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:23.580 but you would come slipping back down on 505 00:23:23.580 --> 00:23:24.160 a snake. 506 00:23:24.320 --> 00:23:26.140 It would fit with their scenario. 507 00:23:26.540 --> 00:23:29.280 But perhaps Tolkien felt that mentioning that game 508 00:23:29.280 --> 00:23:30.820 was too present day. 509 00:23:31.100 --> 00:23:33.600 So snakes and adders, adders of course being 510 00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:37.160 a kind of snake, it kind of produces 511 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.660 a connection to the game without being, taking 512 00:23:41.660 --> 00:23:43.900 us out of the frame of this archaic 513 00:23:43.900 --> 00:23:44.900 world he's describing. 514 00:23:46.840 --> 00:23:50.380 Okay, so now we're on to the last 515 00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:53.300 section, which is the arrival of Gollum. 516 00:23:53.380 --> 00:23:54.720 And this is where we get the first 517 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:55.760 full glimpse of Gollum. 518 00:23:55.840 --> 00:23:58.220 We've seen him in the dark, we've seen 519 00:23:58.220 --> 00:23:59.780 him in the river, but we haven't seen 520 00:23:59.780 --> 00:24:02.520 him close to in detail. 521 00:24:03.800 --> 00:24:07.100 The companion to Lord of the Rings, which 522 00:24:07.100 --> 00:24:10.460 I've been to help me as I've been 523 00:24:10.460 --> 00:24:13.900 doing this read through, the one by Hammond 524 00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:18.060 and Scull, has a fascinating little section on 525 00:24:18.060 --> 00:24:20.320 this about how Tolkien was upset by the 526 00:24:20.320 --> 00:24:23.920 illustrations that kept coming back for the foreign 527 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:26.640 language editions of Lord of the Rings, in 528 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.080 part because people were taking his comparison of 529 00:24:30.080 --> 00:24:34.080 Gollum to insects like spiders or frogs, very 530 00:24:34.080 --> 00:24:34.560 literally. 531 00:24:35.340 --> 00:24:40.000 When he's clear that they're like this, they 532 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.540 aren't a frog or a spider. 533 00:24:44.820 --> 00:24:48.140 And the description obviously is more of an 534 00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:53.040 emaciated, ravaged, twisted, hobbit-like creature, because he 535 00:24:53.040 --> 00:24:56.180 seems to be roughly the same height as 536 00:24:56.180 --> 00:24:57.160 the hobbits themselves. 537 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.780 Anyway, Frodo is the one who really gets 538 00:25:00.780 --> 00:25:04.900 Gollum, because he says right from the start, 539 00:25:05.080 --> 00:25:07.800 he's much more dangerous than he looks. 540 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.340 So indeed, that is Gollum, isn't it? 541 00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:14.720 Now, I think that looking at it from 542 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:16.660 a writer's point of view, the most remarkable 543 00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:20.020 thing Tolkien has done with this character, and 544 00:25:20.020 --> 00:25:21.360 it's quite innovative. 545 00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:25.120 There were some characters who were sort of 546 00:25:25.120 --> 00:25:27.400 divided against themselves in fantasy. 547 00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:31.660 I'm thinking back to some early 19th century 548 00:25:31.660 --> 00:25:32.220 novels. 549 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:37.140 You've got James Hogg's Confessions of a Justified 550 00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:40.820 Sinner, which I think is from 1824. 551 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:44.720 And of course, later, something that Tolkien definitely 552 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:48.300 would have known is the Dr. Jekyll and 553 00:25:48.300 --> 00:25:49.920 Mr. Hyde story. 554 00:25:51.060 --> 00:25:54.120 But what Tolkien does here, which is fascinating, 555 00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:57.360 is that he combines those in two. 556 00:25:58.620 --> 00:26:02.280 Both of those characters of the split inside 557 00:26:02.280 --> 00:26:05.200 the personality of Gollum's Sméagol are present at 558 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:07.200 the same time talking to each other. 559 00:26:07.820 --> 00:26:12.060 And he does this primarily or almost entirely 560 00:26:12.060 --> 00:26:13.700 through dialogue. 561 00:26:15.380 --> 00:26:17.400 It's technically a monologue, isn't it? 562 00:26:17.460 --> 00:26:18.620 But basically, it's a dialogue. 563 00:26:19.060 --> 00:26:21.440 Anyone who's seen the films of the Andy 564 00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.140 Serkis performance will know exactly what I'm talking 565 00:26:24.140 --> 00:26:24.520 about. 566 00:26:25.060 --> 00:26:27.540 He flicks on a dime, but yet it's 567 00:26:27.540 --> 00:26:28.440 all in the Tolkien. 568 00:26:28.600 --> 00:26:32.420 It's not a clever actor interpreting the text, 569 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:34.140 though it's that too. 570 00:26:34.320 --> 00:26:36.720 It's actually led by the author in this 571 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:37.000 case. 572 00:26:37.060 --> 00:26:39.320 And it's a real masterclass in how to 573 00:26:39.320 --> 00:26:42.820 characterize somebody in the way that they speak. 574 00:26:43.900 --> 00:26:46.380 We are also given some physical clues as 575 00:26:46.380 --> 00:26:46.560 well. 576 00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:48.420 We're told that his voice is a creaking 577 00:26:48.420 --> 00:26:49.540 and whistling voice. 578 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.020 There's lots of sibilant sounds. 579 00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:56.260 And we'll look at in a moment at 580 00:26:56.260 --> 00:26:58.000 this sentence structure as well. 581 00:26:58.100 --> 00:26:58.840 So it's all there. 582 00:26:58.940 --> 00:27:00.620 It's very well crafted. 583 00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:03.840 And it reads out very well. 584 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.620 If you are listening to audio versions of 585 00:27:06.620 --> 00:27:10.900 this on your dog walks or whatever, one 586 00:27:10.900 --> 00:27:12.860 of the things that's the delight of the 587 00:27:12.860 --> 00:27:15.120 Andy Serkis read version of this is that 588 00:27:15.120 --> 00:27:17.820 you hear him do the extended dialogue. 589 00:27:17.820 --> 00:27:21.340 All the Gollum bits in his Gollum voice. 590 00:27:22.020 --> 00:27:23.600 So this is a great chapter to listen 591 00:27:23.600 --> 00:27:24.780 to in that version. 592 00:27:26.140 --> 00:27:28.000 One of the things to note from a 593 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:33.120 writing point of view is that Gollum knows 594 00:27:33.120 --> 00:27:34.380 exactly what he's doing. 595 00:27:36.660 --> 00:27:41.860 When he talks about himself, self-referential, we, 596 00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:45.520 and says precious with a lowercase p, he's 597 00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:50.300 talking about himself, loving himself, the precious that 598 00:27:50.300 --> 00:27:50.940 is himself. 599 00:27:52.320 --> 00:27:56.600 When the speech has a capital P, my 600 00:27:56.600 --> 00:28:00.120 precious, then he's talking about the ring. 601 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:02.160 So next time you read it, do look 602 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:04.160 out for that because it helps. 603 00:28:04.360 --> 00:28:05.280 Well, it makes it clearer. 604 00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:07.820 In fact, what he's actually saying once you 605 00:28:07.820 --> 00:28:10.840 notice the difference, but also it shows that 606 00:28:10.840 --> 00:28:14.340 Gollum has a very clear delineation. 607 00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:18.040 The precious is, I would say that he 608 00:28:18.040 --> 00:28:19.220 is an extension of the precious. 609 00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:20.920 I was about to say the precious is 610 00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:22.340 an extension of him, but it's actually the 611 00:28:22.340 --> 00:28:26.160 other way around, that that's the capital P 612 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.520 precious and he is a sort of servant 613 00:28:28.520 --> 00:28:28.960 of it. 614 00:28:30.760 --> 00:28:33.920 Also note that his thoughts are stuck in 615 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:35.980 obsessive circles. 616 00:28:36.780 --> 00:28:40.380 He repeats himself a lot, thieves, thieves, and 617 00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:40.840 so on. 618 00:28:41.780 --> 00:28:46.220 And he often refers to the same grievances. 619 00:28:46.580 --> 00:28:48.580 He just goes round and round and round. 620 00:28:48.700 --> 00:28:49.720 He's exhausted. 621 00:28:49.980 --> 00:28:54.820 He's a tired, broken record in terms of 622 00:28:54.820 --> 00:28:56.620 his inner monologue. 623 00:28:58.850 --> 00:29:02.430 And his entry into the story is very 624 00:29:02.430 --> 00:29:02.810 vivid. 625 00:29:03.550 --> 00:29:04.950 And I think perhaps this is one of 626 00:29:04.950 --> 00:29:07.530 the best visualizations in this chapter. 627 00:29:08.110 --> 00:29:11.510 He's coming down the same rock face that 628 00:29:11.510 --> 00:29:14.110 the Hobbits climbed down and he's coming down 629 00:29:14.110 --> 00:29:16.110 head first because he seems to be smelling 630 00:29:16.110 --> 00:29:17.050 the track. 631 00:29:17.850 --> 00:29:20.210 As he did so, he falls because he 632 00:29:20.210 --> 00:29:22.590 reaches an undercut place where he can't cling 633 00:29:22.590 --> 00:29:22.850 on. 634 00:29:23.350 --> 00:29:25.130 As he did so, he curled his legs 635 00:29:25.130 --> 00:29:27.870 and arms up round him like a spider 636 00:29:27.870 --> 00:29:30.170 whose descending thread is snapped. 637 00:29:30.170 --> 00:29:33.790 I can totally see that in my head. 638 00:29:34.470 --> 00:29:40.950 It's also, you know, there is, is it 639 00:29:40.950 --> 00:29:42.370 foreshadowing maybe? 640 00:29:42.810 --> 00:29:44.690 But the idea, of course, he is also 641 00:29:44.690 --> 00:29:47.230 the spider's servant, which we will only find 642 00:29:47.230 --> 00:29:48.150 out in a few chapters. 643 00:29:49.710 --> 00:29:52.850 This takes us on to the key moment 644 00:29:52.850 --> 00:29:56.490 of this book, really, as in the two 645 00:29:56.490 --> 00:29:56.930 towers. 646 00:29:57.750 --> 00:30:00.250 It is the key moment when they decide 647 00:30:00.250 --> 00:30:01.290 what to do with Gollum. 648 00:30:03.110 --> 00:30:06.990 And after the tussle, when they restrain Gollum, 649 00:30:07.910 --> 00:30:10.310 we have some flashbacks. 650 00:30:11.530 --> 00:30:13.010 There's actually two of them. 651 00:30:13.090 --> 00:30:15.730 I hadn't noticed this until I read it 652 00:30:15.730 --> 00:30:16.170 this time. 653 00:30:17.030 --> 00:30:21.370 We've got Frodo remembering an entire conversation with 654 00:30:21.370 --> 00:30:24.270 Gandalf that happened on that morning in the 655 00:30:24.270 --> 00:30:25.650 Shire long, long ago. 656 00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:29.230 And it's replayed. 657 00:30:29.250 --> 00:30:31.050 I don't think it's exactly word for word, 658 00:30:31.190 --> 00:30:34.190 but it's the gist or almost the entirety 659 00:30:34.190 --> 00:30:38.030 of that conversation slightly, slightly changed as it 660 00:30:38.030 --> 00:30:40.050 would be if you were remembering a conversation. 661 00:30:41.010 --> 00:30:50.490 And, of course, he is recalling that Gandalf 662 00:30:50.490 --> 00:30:55.330 saying, when Bilbo met Gollum, it was pity 663 00:30:55.330 --> 00:30:58.090 that stayed his hand. 664 00:30:58.810 --> 00:31:01.730 And that's an absolutely key sentence in the 665 00:31:01.730 --> 00:31:02.490 whole book. 666 00:31:03.590 --> 00:31:07.370 And note here that pity is given a 667 00:31:07.370 --> 00:31:08.170 capital P. 668 00:31:08.590 --> 00:31:12.850 When Gandalf speaks of pity, it's like a 669 00:31:13.750 --> 00:31:16.130 powerful, almost religious concept. 670 00:31:16.550 --> 00:31:20.230 And you've got the capital P, precious, which 671 00:31:20.230 --> 00:31:23.750 is evil and obsession and everything that's bad 672 00:31:23.750 --> 00:31:30.230 consuming you, contrasted with the capital P, pity, 673 00:31:30.230 --> 00:31:33.230 which is the characteristic of those who are 674 00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:34.550 good in this story. 675 00:31:35.790 --> 00:31:38.410 And we also get the very telling phrase 676 00:31:38.410 --> 00:31:42.430 that Frodo remembers, even the wise cannot see 677 00:31:42.430 --> 00:31:43.090 all ends. 678 00:31:43.170 --> 00:31:44.870 That goes back to what Frodo was saying 679 00:31:44.870 --> 00:31:46.430 about, is it good or ill? 680 00:31:46.530 --> 00:31:47.670 It's going to show me the way. 681 00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:55.100 And Frodo is standing there talking to the 682 00:31:55.100 --> 00:31:57.120 Gandalf, who at this stage he thinks is 683 00:31:57.120 --> 00:31:57.480 dead. 684 00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:04.340 And he's finally replying to the question that 685 00:32:04.340 --> 00:32:07.020 Gandalf raised at that time. 686 00:32:07.900 --> 00:32:10.900 And he says, for now that I see 687 00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:13.200 him, I do pity him. 688 00:32:13.820 --> 00:32:17.540 And that quality in Frodo is what's going 689 00:32:17.540 --> 00:32:20.540 to save the world in terms of the 690 00:32:20.540 --> 00:32:21.300 Middle Earth world. 691 00:32:23.340 --> 00:32:25.640 I think what follows here is one of 692 00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:27.720 the best dialogues in the story. 693 00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:29.100 In fact, one of the best dialogues in 694 00:32:29.100 --> 00:32:29.540 fantasy. 695 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:34.280 And you've got Sam watching this balance, this 696 00:32:34.280 --> 00:32:39.360 struggle between Frodo and Gollum, the sort of 697 00:32:39.360 --> 00:32:41.600 questioning of why Gollum is there and so 698 00:32:41.600 --> 00:32:41.840 on. 699 00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:46.740 And you see that Frodo is no pushover. 700 00:32:47.060 --> 00:32:48.820 He is the officer in charge of this 701 00:32:48.820 --> 00:32:51.580 little scouting party that's out in the no 702 00:32:51.580 --> 00:32:52.260 man's land. 703 00:32:53.520 --> 00:32:56.080 And you get lots of little phrases that 704 00:32:56.080 --> 00:33:01.120 sum up Gollum's character, because when he's trying 705 00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:03.480 to answer a question, he goes, yes, yes, 706 00:33:03.560 --> 00:33:03.920 no. 707 00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:05.320 That's him. 708 00:33:05.380 --> 00:33:05.920 He's torn. 709 00:33:06.020 --> 00:33:07.320 He can't give a straight answer. 710 00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:11.280 He wants to lie, but he can't quite. 711 00:33:11.480 --> 00:33:14.000 He's just fractured, broken. 712 00:33:14.980 --> 00:33:17.720 And after having seen Frodo refer to his 713 00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:20.060 past, we then get a little moment where 714 00:33:20.060 --> 00:33:23.820 Gollum is lost in his past, where he 715 00:33:23.820 --> 00:33:26.880 is reliving what seems to have been his 716 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:27.340 torture. 717 00:33:28.800 --> 00:33:30.720 And Frodo understands this. 718 00:33:32.890 --> 00:33:34.910 And his response to seeing Gollum sort of 719 00:33:34.910 --> 00:33:39.050 have this flashback to these traumatic events is, 720 00:33:39.150 --> 00:33:40.590 but if you really wish to be free 721 00:33:40.590 --> 00:33:42.090 of him, that's Sauron. 722 00:33:42.610 --> 00:33:44.110 If you really wish to be free of 723 00:33:44.110 --> 00:33:46.190 him again, then you must help me. 724 00:33:47.290 --> 00:33:48.790 Gollum doesn't know what that means at this 725 00:33:48.790 --> 00:33:49.070 point. 726 00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:54.820 And Gollum's reaction is a sort of sullen, 727 00:33:55.260 --> 00:33:59.040 truculent, almost childlike refusal. 728 00:34:00.540 --> 00:34:03.520 And how we tell this is he breaks 729 00:34:03.520 --> 00:34:06.400 into little sentences. 730 00:34:10.820 --> 00:34:12.540 He's being rude in a way. 731 00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:14.179 Sneary. 732 00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:15.280 Always there. 733 00:34:15.780 --> 00:34:17.120 Orcs will take you all the way. 734 00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:19.040 Easy to find orcs east of the river. 735 00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:20.320 Don't ask Smeagol. 736 00:34:20.659 --> 00:34:21.620 Poor, poor Smeagol. 737 00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:23.100 He went away long ago. 738 00:34:23.560 --> 00:34:25.560 They took his precious and his loss now. 739 00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:30.639 That poor, poor Smeagol, he went away long 740 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:33.360 ago is truer than Gollum Smeagol knows, of 741 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:33.679 course. 742 00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:36.739 He's lost himself when he found the ring. 743 00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:44.560 And Frodo's strength-ish is actually most evident 744 00:34:44.560 --> 00:34:47.360 at this point because he cuts through Gollum's 745 00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:47.960 rubbish. 746 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:50.219 And he says, get up. 747 00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:51.520 Right, come on. 748 00:34:51.620 --> 00:34:53.659 It's the sort of cool to let's stop 749 00:34:53.659 --> 00:34:54.120 this. 750 00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:56.100 You're not going to pull the wool over 751 00:34:56.100 --> 00:34:56.840 my eyes. 752 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:01.400 And this is where they put the rope 753 00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:04.880 on Gollum and you get the history of 754 00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.340 Gollum wailing and whining. 755 00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:10.020 And one of the telling little details here 756 00:35:10.020 --> 00:35:13.240 is Frodo becomes convinced that Sam has been 757 00:35:13.240 --> 00:35:14.820 cruel and tied it too tight. 758 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.580 And then he notices or he checks, he 759 00:35:17.580 --> 00:35:20.320 finds that Sam had been gentler than his 760 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:20.980 words. 761 00:35:21.740 --> 00:35:24.140 So Sam betrays himself in his actions, even 762 00:35:24.140 --> 00:35:26.180 though his words may on occasion be a 763 00:35:26.180 --> 00:35:30.600 bit, well, not exactly cruel, but certainly short 764 00:35:30.600 --> 00:35:31.060 tempered. 765 00:35:32.060 --> 00:35:33.120 And now they go on to talking about 766 00:35:33.120 --> 00:35:33.560 the rope. 767 00:35:34.100 --> 00:35:39.620 There's a lovely, the objection from Gollum is 768 00:35:39.620 --> 00:35:40.840 that elves twisted it. 769 00:35:41.080 --> 00:35:43.260 And that word twisted, of course, when we're 770 00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:44.880 reading that, we're thinking, well, yeah, you've been 771 00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:45.440 twisted. 772 00:35:46.140 --> 00:35:47.980 You've been twisted by Sauron. 773 00:35:48.700 --> 00:35:50.520 So you've got the twisted rope of the 774 00:35:50.520 --> 00:35:55.140 elves versus the twisted character, the body of 775 00:35:55.140 --> 00:35:56.140 poor old Gollum. 776 00:35:57.160 --> 00:35:59.820 And carrying on with this idea of Frodo 777 00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:02.540 actually being much stronger than perhaps the rather 778 00:36:02.540 --> 00:36:05.780 gentler, sweet, young Elijah Wood version of this 779 00:36:05.780 --> 00:36:11.380 is that when Gollum says he will swear 780 00:36:11.380 --> 00:36:14.080 on the ring, you've got Frodo saying, how 781 00:36:14.080 --> 00:36:14.840 dare you? 782 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:16.660 How dare you say that? 783 00:36:16.700 --> 00:36:18.520 And we know that's a worrying sign because 784 00:36:18.520 --> 00:36:20.580 Frodo is getting under the power of the 785 00:36:20.580 --> 00:36:23.680 ring too, but he's not yet succumbed. 786 00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:26.680 He still knows himself and he's doing this 787 00:36:26.680 --> 00:36:28.020 with stern pity. 788 00:36:28.660 --> 00:36:31.760 So pity isn't soft and soggy, it's stern. 789 00:36:33.040 --> 00:36:35.580 And this is where Sam as the external 790 00:36:35.580 --> 00:36:38.540 point of view is useful because in this 791 00:36:38.540 --> 00:36:43.520 standoff between the two, Gollum and Frodo, Sam 792 00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:45.620 is thinking that Frodo looks like a mighty 793 00:36:45.620 --> 00:36:48.760 lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud 794 00:36:48.760 --> 00:36:51.360 and at his feet a little whining dog. 795 00:36:52.340 --> 00:36:55.100 Yet, and that is perhaps the interesting qualification 796 00:36:55.100 --> 00:36:57.660 here, yet the two were in some way 797 00:36:57.660 --> 00:36:59.280 akin and not alien. 798 00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:03.220 They could reach one another's minds. 799 00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.080 Sam knows he's outside of this. 800 00:37:06.700 --> 00:37:08.640 Note that it's not till Sam has actually 801 00:37:08.640 --> 00:37:10.840 had the experience of wearing the ring right 802 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:13.520 towards the end when he has his moment 803 00:37:13.520 --> 00:37:18.060 of pity with Gollum that he can fully 804 00:37:18.060 --> 00:37:18.740 sympathise. 805 00:37:19.740 --> 00:37:20.920 And Gollum makes his vow. 806 00:37:22.140 --> 00:37:24.980 And of course, if we're reading carefully, we 807 00:37:24.980 --> 00:37:27.600 will see that it's a dangerous one. 808 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:32.080 I, so it's a unitary self, that's more 809 00:37:32.080 --> 00:37:34.880 often Smeagol who says that, I will serve 810 00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:38.560 the master of the precious. 811 00:37:40.590 --> 00:37:43.750 Obviously, that's the wiggle room he's left himself. 812 00:37:45.630 --> 00:37:48.650 And he flips into being friendly, and this 813 00:37:48.650 --> 00:37:51.250 is what Sam is thinking now, friendly and 814 00:37:51.250 --> 00:37:53.430 pitifully anxious to please. 815 00:37:53.590 --> 00:37:56.130 But that just sets Sam's teeth on edge 816 00:37:56.130 --> 00:37:57.010 even more. 817 00:37:57.670 --> 00:38:00.030 He distrusts him even more when he's trying 818 00:38:00.030 --> 00:38:02.890 to please, which I think is quite apparent. 819 00:38:03.570 --> 00:38:05.230 Of course, we will be getting that moment 820 00:38:05.230 --> 00:38:08.670 of almost salvation for Gollum coming up not 821 00:38:08.670 --> 00:38:10.230 too long after. 822 00:38:11.690 --> 00:38:14.710 So it's a fascinating chapter, perhaps not the 823 00:38:14.710 --> 00:38:16.750 easiest one to read because of the confusion 824 00:38:16.750 --> 00:38:20.630 of the landscape and the frustrations and the 825 00:38:20.630 --> 00:38:23.010 feeling that we're not going forwards but circling. 826 00:38:23.110 --> 00:38:24.890 But actually, we've made a huge step forward 827 00:38:24.890 --> 00:38:26.910 in terms of the real quest that's going 828 00:38:26.910 --> 00:38:28.350 on, the inner quest. 829 00:38:29.250 --> 00:38:31.490 And it ends as it started on an 830 00:38:31.490 --> 00:38:32.270 anonymous note. 831 00:38:32.830 --> 00:38:35.050 Over all the leagues of waste before the 832 00:38:35.050 --> 00:38:38.230 gates of Mordor, there was a black silence. 833 00:38:39.310 --> 00:38:41.370 And the next chapter will take us onto 834 00:38:41.370 --> 00:38:42.410 the dead marshes. 835 00:38:42.970 --> 00:38:44.810 So we'll see what happens to them then. 836 00:38:44.970 --> 00:38:46.150 Thank you very much for listening. 837 00:38:46.850 --> 00:38:50.670 And as I said, may seem a difficult 838 00:38:50.670 --> 00:38:52.990 chapter to read, but we are meeting one 839 00:38:52.990 --> 00:38:55.230 of those great characters in fantasy literature. 840 00:38:55.350 --> 00:38:57.710 So it's worth battling our way through. 841 00:39:02.680 --> 00:39:06.680 Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought 842 00:39:06.680 --> 00:39:09.060 to you by the Oxford Center for Fantasy. 843 00:39:09.820 --> 00:39:13.640 Visit OxfordCenterForFantasy.org to join in the fun. 844 00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:17.200 Find out about our online courses, in-person 845 00:39:17.200 --> 00:39:20.300 stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for 846 00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:21.280 great gifts. 847 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:24.640 Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find 848 00:39:24.640 --> 00:39:27.280 your favorite podcasts worldwide.