1 00:00:04.640 --> 00:00:06.840 Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. 2 00:00:07.100 --> 00:00:09.980 Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans 3 00:00:09.980 --> 00:00:12.560 and fantasy creatives brought to you by the 4 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:14.000 Oxford Centre for Fantasy. 5 00:00:14.440 --> 00:00:17.700 My name is Julia Golding and I'm continuing 6 00:00:17.700 --> 00:00:21.020 our Sidecast series as we read our way 7 00:00:21.020 --> 00:00:23.740 through The Lord of the Rings, taking a 8 00:00:23.740 --> 00:00:25.720 look at it from an author's point of 9 00:00:25.720 --> 00:00:25.900 view. 10 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.060 And today we have reached chapter three in 11 00:00:29.060 --> 00:00:29.540 book four. 12 00:00:29.740 --> 00:00:31.560 So that's halfway through The Two Towers. 13 00:00:31.860 --> 00:00:35.420 And this chapter is called The Black Gate 14 00:00:35.420 --> 00:00:36.920 Is Closed. 15 00:00:37.620 --> 00:00:39.700 So that really tells you what's going on 16 00:00:39.700 --> 00:00:40.460 in this chapter. 17 00:00:40.800 --> 00:00:43.540 And I was thinking about what is in 18 00:00:43.540 --> 00:00:46.160 fact a relatively short chapter by the standard 19 00:00:46.160 --> 00:00:48.860 of the other ones in this book, that 20 00:00:48.860 --> 00:00:53.300 in terms of its structure, it really is 21 00:00:53.300 --> 00:00:57.980 hinged around a decision or it leads up 22 00:00:57.980 --> 00:00:59.020 in fact to a decision. 23 00:00:59.820 --> 00:01:02.500 So it's not a complicated one. 24 00:01:02.660 --> 00:01:06.740 They arrive, they discuss, Frodo has a decision 25 00:01:06.740 --> 00:01:09.460 to make and that is the structure of 26 00:01:09.460 --> 00:01:10.000 the chapter. 27 00:01:10.980 --> 00:01:13.980 And it's interesting that Tolkien wanted to separate 28 00:01:13.980 --> 00:01:17.780 it out from the previous material, crossing the 29 00:01:17.780 --> 00:01:20.360 marshes and the material to come, which is 30 00:01:20.360 --> 00:01:23.940 when they head off into Ithilien, because it 31 00:01:23.940 --> 00:01:26.640 is one of those moments on which the 32 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.520 quest hangs on the decision of a individual. 33 00:01:31.360 --> 00:01:33.340 And so he is highlighting that in the 34 00:01:33.340 --> 00:01:34.220 choice of structure. 35 00:01:34.320 --> 00:01:35.560 So when you think about this as an 36 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:39.300 author, remember the power of your divisions that 37 00:01:39.300 --> 00:01:39.980 you can do that. 38 00:01:40.060 --> 00:01:42.680 You can put something in a separate package 39 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:44.200 so people really focus on it. 40 00:01:44.740 --> 00:01:47.120 Okay, so let's think about this chapter and 41 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:49.200 the decision that Frodo is taking. 42 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.100 He is actually one of those chapters that 43 00:01:53.100 --> 00:01:55.420 starts with a fairly shocking and a bit 44 00:01:55.420 --> 00:01:58.820 misleading first line, because the first line is, 45 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:02.480 before the next day dawned, their journey to 46 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:03.620 Mordor was over. 47 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:06.260 And I've mentioned a couple of times that 48 00:02:06.260 --> 00:02:10.240 in the original plan, as far as he 49 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:12.840 planned, Tolkien had thought he was getting near 50 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:13.240 the end. 51 00:02:14.060 --> 00:02:15.900 And perhaps it was when he reached the 52 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:17.760 gates and thought, hang on a minute, it 53 00:02:17.760 --> 00:02:19.240 really isn't going to be so easy that 54 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:21.300 you don't just walk into Mordor to borrow 55 00:02:21.300 --> 00:02:23.640 the famous Boromir phrase. 56 00:02:24.640 --> 00:02:26.340 It's got to be harder. 57 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:32.260 You don't want a story where the sequence 58 00:02:32.260 --> 00:02:33.620 of events isn't earned. 59 00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:35.840 So imagine an alternative where he thinks, okay, 60 00:02:35.860 --> 00:02:38.460 we're at the gates, they're going to smuggle 61 00:02:38.460 --> 00:02:40.560 themselves in on the end of a line 62 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:45.140 of marching soldiers or in a wagon, pretending 63 00:02:45.140 --> 00:02:46.300 to be a barrel of something. 64 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.120 He possibly ran all these different scenarios in 65 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:50.480 his mind. 66 00:02:50.880 --> 00:02:53.420 If we're going to believe that the bad 67 00:02:53.420 --> 00:02:57.060 guy, if the Dark Lord is all powerful, 68 00:02:57.200 --> 00:02:59.140 it's got to be hard to get close. 69 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:01.160 It's got to be hard to get into 70 00:03:01.160 --> 00:03:01.720 his land. 71 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:05.660 If his world is too porous, then he's 72 00:03:05.660 --> 00:03:06.780 not much of a threat, is he? 73 00:03:08.300 --> 00:03:12.180 So the passage after that gives you a 74 00:03:12.180 --> 00:03:13.460 new piece of orientation. 75 00:03:13.760 --> 00:03:17.920 Tolkien's very good in setting up this imaginary 76 00:03:17.920 --> 00:03:19.180 landscape for us. 77 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:20.620 And this is the first time we've got 78 00:03:20.620 --> 00:03:22.280 close to Mordor. 79 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:26.100 So he tells us of the main ranges 80 00:03:26.100 --> 00:03:27.180 of mountains. 81 00:03:27.760 --> 00:03:33.580 He is using words that describe them based 82 00:03:33.580 --> 00:03:36.880 in Elvish, and they have a meaning for 83 00:03:36.880 --> 00:03:37.160 him. 84 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:39.660 But what I find interesting is that he 85 00:03:39.660 --> 00:03:42.180 doesn't tell us the meaning, but he does 86 00:03:42.180 --> 00:03:45.300 gloss it by the descriptors just in front 87 00:03:45.940 --> 00:03:46.900 of each of them. 88 00:03:47.380 --> 00:03:51.480 So he talks about the gloomy range of 89 00:03:51.480 --> 00:03:54.020 Efel Duath, the Mountains of Shadow. 90 00:03:54.440 --> 00:03:56.020 So he does translate that. 91 00:03:56.520 --> 00:03:58.660 But then he goes on to talk about 92 00:03:58.660 --> 00:04:03.580 Ered Lithwi, Grey's Ash, and the Elven Sindarin, 93 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:04.220 I think it is. 94 00:04:04.620 --> 00:04:07.940 I'm not great on Elvish, is the idea 95 00:04:07.940 --> 00:04:08.520 of ash. 96 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:11.360 And then you go inside into places like 97 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:14.400 the Sea of Núrnirn, that holds its idea 98 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:15.380 of sad or bitterness. 99 00:04:15.700 --> 00:04:19.339 So he's not wanting to keep stop the 100 00:04:19.339 --> 00:04:21.520 action to give you his clever language glosses. 101 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:22.920 He puts it there in the description. 102 00:04:23.220 --> 00:04:24.780 So you understand the context. 103 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:28.000 So we now know, we get to understand 104 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:29.920 there are some roots of Elvish, which we 105 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:30.920 see again and again. 106 00:04:31.640 --> 00:04:32.620 And so we can probably do a bit 107 00:04:32.620 --> 00:04:33.580 of guessing ourselves. 108 00:04:34.840 --> 00:04:37.280 And that is important because we're going to 109 00:04:37.280 --> 00:04:39.860 come towards the end of the chapter where 110 00:04:39.860 --> 00:04:44.380 an hidden name is actually a massive clue 111 00:04:44.380 --> 00:04:46.960 as to what they're going to face next. 112 00:04:48.640 --> 00:04:50.960 One of the interesting things about Tolkien in 113 00:04:50.960 --> 00:04:55.920 his imagination is his belief that evil is 114 00:04:56.380 --> 00:04:58.060 a corruption of the good. 115 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:00.060 And you see that in such things like 116 00:05:00.060 --> 00:05:00.940 the Orc Race. 117 00:05:02.200 --> 00:05:04.180 But you get it here in terms of 118 00:05:04.180 --> 00:05:06.400 the buildings that edge Mordor. 119 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:09.860 I'm only aware really of there being one 120 00:05:09.860 --> 00:05:13.260 structure other than Rhodes in Mordor, which is 121 00:05:13.260 --> 00:05:15.540 built by the Dark Lord, which is Barad 122 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:15.780 -dûr. 123 00:05:16.520 --> 00:05:20.620 But all the other towers are based on 124 00:05:20.620 --> 00:05:22.920 Númenórean buildings, which were put there to keep 125 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:27.560 watch and were then overrun and turned to 126 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:28.460 evil purposes. 127 00:05:29.180 --> 00:05:31.240 So what was a defensive move becomes a 128 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:33.220 flipped over. 129 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:35.920 And that sort of goes with the philosophy 130 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:37.820 about where evil comes from. 131 00:05:38.640 --> 00:05:43.000 It creates little, but corrupts a lot. 132 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:48.840 And the descriptors here reinforce that with some 133 00:05:48.840 --> 00:05:51.880 telling phrases like, none could pass the teeth 134 00:05:51.880 --> 00:05:54.140 of Mordor and not feel their bite. 135 00:05:54.960 --> 00:05:58.580 So the landscape is almost a character here, 136 00:05:58.660 --> 00:06:01.200 as very often it is in Tolkien. 137 00:06:02.420 --> 00:06:03.740 It reminds me quite a lot of the 138 00:06:03.740 --> 00:06:05.620 Cold War, the way this is described. 139 00:06:07.440 --> 00:06:09.760 Some people listening to this will perhaps not 140 00:06:09.760 --> 00:06:12.100 remember that, but there was a sense of 141 00:06:12.100 --> 00:06:17.760 a line across Europe with these security guards 142 00:06:17.760 --> 00:06:21.300 on the borders, but the Berlin Wall was 143 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:23.300 being constructed in the 50s. 144 00:06:23.420 --> 00:06:26.960 So perhaps that's not the right comparison, but 145 00:06:26.960 --> 00:06:28.920 certainly by the time I was reading it, 146 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:30.640 that was the kind of thing I was 147 00:06:30.640 --> 00:06:36.080 thinking of, that dangerous space in Berlin between 148 00:06:36.080 --> 00:06:38.040 East and West where people would get shot 149 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:38.920 trying to get across. 150 00:06:39.020 --> 00:06:43.720 It's that feeling of the landscape separating sides 151 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:45.960 that he captures very well here. 152 00:06:46.540 --> 00:06:49.860 Full of grim, but great detail. 153 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:52.500 There's a moment when you get a brass 154 00:06:52.500 --> 00:06:56.160 fanfare and he sums it up like this. 155 00:06:56.300 --> 00:06:59.600 Another dreadful day of fear and toil had 156 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.600 come to Mordor and the night guards were 157 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:06.020 summoned to their dungeons and deep halls and 158 00:07:06.020 --> 00:07:09.340 the day guards, evil-eyed and fell, were 159 00:07:09.340 --> 00:07:10.900 marching to their posts. 160 00:07:11.220 --> 00:07:13.580 So he gives you this sense of a 161 00:07:13.580 --> 00:07:21.560 well-regulated, militaristic, oppressive world which keeps on 162 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:24.160 ticking over every day, every dreadful day. 163 00:07:25.640 --> 00:07:28.800 So once he's painted that, we get, of 164 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.600 course, a little bit of shire grounding where 165 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:34.880 Sam is saying well, if the gaffer could 166 00:07:34.880 --> 00:07:37.220 see me now, he'd say I told you 167 00:07:37.220 --> 00:07:37.640 so. 168 00:07:38.760 --> 00:07:40.060 And it does feel as though they've come 169 00:07:40.060 --> 00:07:40.720 to a dead end. 170 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:41.820 So what are they going to do? 171 00:07:41.880 --> 00:07:47.120 They're in an impasse and Frodo, he refuses 172 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:54.520 really to accept Gollum's view that obviously they 173 00:07:54.520 --> 00:07:55.340 can't go any further. 174 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.200 And this is where Frodo is, in some 175 00:07:58.200 --> 00:08:02.440 ways, that he's very, he's most heroic. 176 00:08:03.460 --> 00:08:06.520 And his face was grim and set, but 177 00:08:06.520 --> 00:08:07.140 resolute. 178 00:08:07.760 --> 00:08:09.540 And he follows simple logic. 179 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:11.400 I know no other way. 180 00:08:12.020 --> 00:08:14.620 Every time I read this, I ask myself 181 00:08:14.620 --> 00:08:17.440 a question that Tolkien raises later in this 182 00:08:17.440 --> 00:08:20.480 chapter, which is, we never do find out 183 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:23.940 what other way Gandalf might have planned. 184 00:08:25.320 --> 00:08:29.360 There is no, because he's shocked when he 185 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:32.880 hears about going through Cirith Ungol. 186 00:08:33.460 --> 00:08:34.659 So what other way was there? 187 00:08:35.940 --> 00:08:37.419 I don't know that he ever answers it. 188 00:08:37.659 --> 00:08:40.039 Maybe Gandalf never actually, in terms of the 189 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:41.700 plot, Gandalf never has to say, oh well, 190 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:43.920 if you followed my plan, I'd have gone 191 00:08:43.920 --> 00:08:44.480 around the back. 192 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:46.760 It doesn't seem as though there's an easy 193 00:08:46.760 --> 00:08:47.160 answer. 194 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:48.780 So Frodo's quite right. 195 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:49.940 I know no other way. 196 00:08:51.380 --> 00:08:53.320 And this actually prompts what I think is 197 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:58.120 probably the best summary of the threat that 198 00:08:58.120 --> 00:08:59.940 Sauron poses. 199 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:02.800 And surprisingly, it's actually from Gollum that this 200 00:09:02.800 --> 00:09:03.320 comes. 201 00:09:04.220 --> 00:09:07.400 He says, if the Dark Lord gets the 202 00:09:07.400 --> 00:09:10.540 ring, he'll eat us all, if he gets 203 00:09:10.540 --> 00:09:12.920 it, eat all the world. 204 00:09:13.920 --> 00:09:18.160 So he wants to consume and destroy. 205 00:09:18.640 --> 00:09:19.860 And I think it's very vivid. 206 00:09:20.160 --> 00:09:21.880 And it's simple words, simple stakes. 207 00:09:23.160 --> 00:09:25.260 And then you get the little phrase, which 208 00:09:25.260 --> 00:09:29.640 is let past to start, but comes back 209 00:09:29.640 --> 00:09:29.940 again. 210 00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:32.600 He says, give it, meaning the ring, back 211 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:33.560 to Smeagol. 212 00:09:34.560 --> 00:09:36.340 So what is going on in this? 213 00:09:36.520 --> 00:09:40.460 I don't know, but I'm wondering if Tolkien 214 00:09:40.460 --> 00:09:42.740 actually knew what was going to happen. 215 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:47.200 Sometimes as a writer, if you don't plan, 216 00:09:49.530 --> 00:09:51.290 I mean, I expect Tolkien knew the ring 217 00:09:51.290 --> 00:09:52.330 was going to go into the fire. 218 00:09:52.450 --> 00:09:54.090 He had a sense of where his ending 219 00:09:54.090 --> 00:09:56.170 was going, but he didn't know the route 220 00:09:56.170 --> 00:09:56.670 to get there. 221 00:09:58.170 --> 00:09:59.810 And he's probably reached a point here. 222 00:09:59.910 --> 00:10:04.030 I feel he's reached a point that he 223 00:10:04.030 --> 00:10:05.610 has written himself to the edge of what 224 00:10:05.610 --> 00:10:06.170 he knows. 225 00:10:06.670 --> 00:10:08.670 Philip Pullman has a phrase about writing into 226 00:10:08.670 --> 00:10:09.150 the dark. 227 00:10:09.270 --> 00:10:10.670 He's in one of those dark moments. 228 00:10:10.770 --> 00:10:12.250 He doesn't know the next steps. 229 00:10:13.150 --> 00:10:15.050 So I get the sense that this debate 230 00:10:15.050 --> 00:10:16.970 is almost a debate he's having with himself. 231 00:10:16.970 --> 00:10:20.710 He's hoping the characters will show him a 232 00:10:20.710 --> 00:10:21.570 way out of it. 233 00:10:22.170 --> 00:10:22.790 That's my guess. 234 00:10:22.870 --> 00:10:26.470 That's what I feel myself when I write 235 00:10:26.470 --> 00:10:28.130 things, that I meet these moments. 236 00:10:28.230 --> 00:10:29.250 And this is what I feel here. 237 00:10:30.090 --> 00:10:32.810 There are obviously earlier versions of this in 238 00:10:32.810 --> 00:10:35.130 the papers, but I think that it still 239 00:10:35.130 --> 00:10:37.210 holds true that when the first drafting of 240 00:10:37.210 --> 00:10:40.090 this, he was looking for that chink of 241 00:10:40.090 --> 00:10:41.610 light that would show him a way forward. 242 00:10:43.090 --> 00:10:44.650 Frodo is the person who is kind of 243 00:10:44.650 --> 00:10:46.990 representing the stuck author, shall we say. 244 00:10:47.270 --> 00:10:49.330 He's saying what comes after must come. 245 00:10:50.270 --> 00:10:52.590 I'm going to go ahead, whatever happens. 246 00:10:53.850 --> 00:10:58.170 Sam is showing his own heroics by saying 247 00:10:58.170 --> 00:11:01.530 that whatever happens, he's not going to go 248 00:11:01.530 --> 00:11:01.890 alone. 249 00:11:03.210 --> 00:11:06.590 And within this little group of three, Tolkien 250 00:11:06.590 --> 00:11:09.070 comes to the realisation that if anyone is 251 00:11:09.070 --> 00:11:10.630 going to come up with an alternative, it 252 00:11:10.630 --> 00:11:12.730 will have to be Smeagol, Gollum. 253 00:11:13.430 --> 00:11:15.710 And he's hinted at it already, of course, 254 00:11:16.270 --> 00:11:19.030 when he talked about maybe she will help, 255 00:11:20.010 --> 00:11:22.150 which had come in the previous chapter. 256 00:11:22.870 --> 00:11:24.270 And he is the one who has the 257 00:11:24.270 --> 00:11:24.710 alternative. 258 00:11:25.310 --> 00:11:27.110 That is logical, isn't it? 259 00:11:27.170 --> 00:11:30.630 Because Smeagol has come out of Mordor, so 260 00:11:30.630 --> 00:11:33.030 he will know a way back in. 261 00:11:33.170 --> 00:11:35.950 So he provides the answer. 262 00:11:36.650 --> 00:11:38.510 And that's very often when you're writing, you'll 263 00:11:38.510 --> 00:11:40.570 find that the answer is there amongst the 264 00:11:40.570 --> 00:11:41.930 elements you've already assembled. 265 00:11:42.090 --> 00:11:43.730 You just need to work out which one 266 00:11:43.730 --> 00:11:45.410 it is, which of the clues it is, 267 00:11:45.910 --> 00:11:48.050 or which thread it is that you tug 268 00:11:48.050 --> 00:11:50.870 that will release that particularly knotted point of 269 00:11:50.870 --> 00:11:51.290 the plot. 270 00:11:53.090 --> 00:11:55.330 The points of view that you get in 271 00:11:55.330 --> 00:11:59.950 this chapter are fascinating because you've got largely 272 00:11:59.950 --> 00:12:03.530 Sam, you get a bit of Frodo, and 273 00:12:03.530 --> 00:12:04.730 you get a bit of the narrator. 274 00:12:05.830 --> 00:12:09.250 And Sam is interesting here because he is 275 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:15.750 getting to understand what Tolkien puts down as 276 00:12:15.750 --> 00:12:17.210 a slow but shrewd mind. 277 00:12:17.810 --> 00:12:20.650 He understands the two halves of Gollum and 278 00:12:20.650 --> 00:12:22.470 Smeagol, slinker and stinker. 279 00:12:22.970 --> 00:12:26.590 And he realises, having heard that discussion, he's 280 00:12:26.590 --> 00:12:29.970 the one who knows that Gollum's already been 281 00:12:29.970 --> 00:12:33.730 plotting, that the two halves have reached a 282 00:12:33.730 --> 00:12:35.910 truce and a temporary alliance. 283 00:12:38.410 --> 00:12:42.390 But what's really fascinating is the danger there, 284 00:12:42.750 --> 00:12:44.170 if you think, oh, well, Sam knows what's 285 00:12:44.170 --> 00:12:47.070 going on, it would make Frodo look a 286 00:12:47.070 --> 00:12:49.510 bit of an idiot in contrast. 287 00:12:50.130 --> 00:12:52.550 And Tolkien's very clear that that's not the 288 00:12:52.550 --> 00:12:52.930 case. 289 00:12:53.770 --> 00:13:00.930 In fact, he underlines that Frodo is the 290 00:13:00.930 --> 00:13:04.710 officer in this little squad trying to invade 291 00:13:04.710 --> 00:13:05.650 Mordor. 292 00:13:06.570 --> 00:13:07.610 And so he goes to the edge of 293 00:13:07.610 --> 00:13:10.810 the little cleft where they're hiding out, the 294 00:13:10.810 --> 00:13:13.270 dell, and he's granted a kind of vision 295 00:13:13.270 --> 00:13:16.010 of the state of affairs, seeing the movements 296 00:13:16.010 --> 00:13:16.690 of peoples. 297 00:13:17.850 --> 00:13:21.110 And he sees it's not the armies of 298 00:13:21.110 --> 00:13:23.830 Gondor arriving, but it's further allies for the 299 00:13:23.830 --> 00:13:24.510 Dark Lord. 300 00:13:25.590 --> 00:13:28.210 So knowing that, knowing there is no easy 301 00:13:28.210 --> 00:13:30.650 way in, of course, he didn't expect there 302 00:13:30.650 --> 00:13:34.790 to be, he takes the first step in 303 00:13:34.790 --> 00:13:38.430 his decision, which is saying, Smeagol, I will 304 00:13:38.430 --> 00:13:39.790 trust you once more. 305 00:13:40.690 --> 00:13:42.630 And he goes on with this phrase, may 306 00:13:42.630 --> 00:13:44.370 the third time prove the best. 307 00:13:45.570 --> 00:13:49.530 The companion to Lord of the Rings points 308 00:13:49.530 --> 00:13:51.810 out that this is an old adage, which 309 00:13:51.810 --> 00:13:53.950 you find in things like Sir Gawain in 310 00:13:53.950 --> 00:13:54.650 the Green Knight. 311 00:13:54.950 --> 00:13:57.030 Sir Gawain in the Green Knight, the test 312 00:13:57.030 --> 00:14:00.150 of Sir Gawain is the rule of three. 313 00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:03.550 It's three times he has to pass the 314 00:14:03.550 --> 00:14:03.890 test. 315 00:14:04.890 --> 00:14:06.630 And it is actually a rule of narrative 316 00:14:06.630 --> 00:14:07.570 three times. 317 00:14:08.750 --> 00:14:11.330 That if you're wondering how many times you 318 00:14:11.330 --> 00:14:13.650 attempt something, twice that fail and once they 319 00:14:13.650 --> 00:14:16.110 succeed, it seems to be a pattern which 320 00:14:16.110 --> 00:14:17.770 our storytelling brain likes. 321 00:14:18.230 --> 00:14:20.630 But anyway, that has become a sort of 322 00:14:20.630 --> 00:14:24.030 saying, and Frodo is using it here. 323 00:14:25.270 --> 00:14:30.610 Because they have, it's not that Gollum has 324 00:14:30.610 --> 00:14:34.170 failed them twice, it's more that they have 325 00:14:34.170 --> 00:14:36.550 trusted him in small ways twice and he's 326 00:14:36.550 --> 00:14:37.290 not failed them. 327 00:14:37.810 --> 00:14:41.390 So this big gesture of trust is the 328 00:14:41.390 --> 00:14:43.870 moment when, may it prove the best, that's 329 00:14:43.870 --> 00:14:44.730 what's going on here. 330 00:14:46.350 --> 00:14:49.870 But Frodo goes on, because occasionally there are 331 00:14:49.870 --> 00:14:52.310 these prophetic moments in Lord of the Rings, 332 00:14:52.750 --> 00:14:55.510 the sense that this world does have a 333 00:14:56.570 --> 00:15:00.190 direction, a shape, a guiding hand. 334 00:15:00.290 --> 00:15:02.350 And sometimes it's the insight of a character 335 00:15:02.350 --> 00:15:03.790 that points the way. 336 00:15:04.330 --> 00:15:08.810 Aron's done this, Galadriel's done this, Gandalf's done 337 00:15:08.810 --> 00:15:10.230 this, and Frodo does too. 338 00:15:10.810 --> 00:15:16.510 Because he warns Gollum that he, Gollum, is 339 00:15:16.510 --> 00:15:17.650 the one most at risk. 340 00:15:18.190 --> 00:15:20.890 Because the desire of it, that being the 341 00:15:20.890 --> 00:15:23.850 ring, may betray you to a bitter end. 342 00:15:25.530 --> 00:15:28.890 And the conclusion there, it's a kind of 343 00:15:28.890 --> 00:15:30.430 mixture of Sam's point of view and the 344 00:15:30.430 --> 00:15:30.810 narrator. 345 00:15:31.030 --> 00:15:34.490 Sam is approving of Frodo's sternness. 346 00:15:35.610 --> 00:15:39.690 And there's a sort of overall conclusion reached 347 00:15:39.690 --> 00:15:44.410 at this point, to help us see Frodo 348 00:15:44.410 --> 00:15:50.350 as this noble, heroic figure, which not to 349 00:15:50.350 --> 00:15:52.930 mistake his kindness as softness. 350 00:15:53.750 --> 00:15:57.770 Kindness is not blindness, is what's put here. 351 00:15:58.370 --> 00:16:00.990 And I think one of the things that 352 00:16:00.990 --> 00:16:02.930 the film did as a disservice to the 353 00:16:02.930 --> 00:16:05.810 Frodo character is by casting it so young, 354 00:16:05.990 --> 00:16:09.650 you miss out on this mature Frodo taking 355 00:16:09.650 --> 00:16:10.590 the decisions. 356 00:16:11.030 --> 00:16:13.470 Because of course, the Elijah Wood version of 357 00:16:13.470 --> 00:16:15.190 this seems so incredibly young. 358 00:16:16.290 --> 00:16:18.350 You don't get that sense of leadership. 359 00:16:18.710 --> 00:16:22.770 And it's good to do that reset in 360 00:16:22.770 --> 00:16:24.530 the brain to think about Frodo and its 361 00:16:24.530 --> 00:16:26.530 character, how far he has to fall with 362 00:16:26.530 --> 00:16:31.090 the ring from this authority, the wisdom that 363 00:16:31.090 --> 00:16:31.610 he has. 364 00:16:31.850 --> 00:16:33.830 There's a sense of his maturity and wisdom 365 00:16:33.830 --> 00:16:35.110 here in these moments. 366 00:16:38.110 --> 00:16:40.830 So Gollum is given a chance to sort 367 00:16:40.830 --> 00:16:42.390 of make his case for what they should 368 00:16:42.390 --> 00:16:42.810 be doing. 369 00:16:43.650 --> 00:16:47.870 And he has this connection back to the 370 00:16:47.870 --> 00:16:50.610 tales he was told as a young proto 371 00:16:50.610 --> 00:16:54.230 -hobbit, or when he was in the Smeagol 372 00:16:54.230 --> 00:16:56.250 and Deagol phrases of his life, with tales 373 00:16:56.250 --> 00:16:57.250 out of the south. 374 00:16:58.030 --> 00:17:01.710 And it's an interesting way to restate the 375 00:17:01.710 --> 00:17:03.950 history of Numenor, which we may have forgotten 376 00:17:03.950 --> 00:17:07.150 by this point, because the early discussion of 377 00:17:07.150 --> 00:17:08.910 that was way back in Fellowship of the 378 00:17:08.910 --> 00:17:11.089 Ring with Aragorn on the road. 379 00:17:12.650 --> 00:17:15.950 In fact, before that, it was with Tom 380 00:17:15.950 --> 00:17:17.230 Bombadil, wasn't it? 381 00:17:17.569 --> 00:17:21.349 But here, it's just summarized again, and it's 382 00:17:21.349 --> 00:17:25.630 necessary to summarize it because Gollum is giving 383 00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:27.270 the context that he's describing. 384 00:17:28.170 --> 00:17:30.890 But it's one of those passages that does 385 00:17:30.890 --> 00:17:31.630 lots of jobs. 386 00:17:31.830 --> 00:17:35.130 It reminds us, it lays out the land, 387 00:17:35.570 --> 00:17:37.870 gives us the historical perspective. 388 00:17:39.170 --> 00:17:41.730 And it also introduces the idea of the 389 00:17:41.730 --> 00:17:45.230 fall of the Dark Lord, Sauron. 390 00:17:45.890 --> 00:17:48.750 And there's this mention of when he lost 391 00:17:48.750 --> 00:17:52.270 the ring, and Gollum says about there being 392 00:17:52.270 --> 00:17:55.650 only four fingers on the black hand. 393 00:17:57.880 --> 00:17:59.120 This is interesting, isn't it? 394 00:17:59.140 --> 00:18:03.100 Because he's kind of disembodied in the eye, 395 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.660 but yet he's seen in the palantir. 396 00:18:07.540 --> 00:18:10.320 It's possibly a case where, a bit like 397 00:18:10.320 --> 00:18:13.460 the Black Riders, where the shape is clothed 398 00:18:13.460 --> 00:18:16.080 in things like robes and gloves. 399 00:18:17.300 --> 00:18:19.000 But anyway, so it suggests that Sauron does 400 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.640 have a physical body as well as that 401 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:20.860 eye. 402 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.140 Never quite worked that out in my mind. 403 00:18:23.560 --> 00:18:24.800 If you know a bit more, let me 404 00:18:24.800 --> 00:18:26.060 know what you think the answer to that 405 00:18:26.060 --> 00:18:26.300 is. 406 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:32.300 And then follows a argument mainly between Sam 407 00:18:32.300 --> 00:18:32.900 and Gollum. 408 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:35.100 And what I think is interesting here is 409 00:18:35.100 --> 00:18:37.600 that you can tell that everybody is frustrated. 410 00:18:37.840 --> 00:18:42.940 None of them want to do this, but 411 00:18:42.940 --> 00:18:46.800 all of them have to. 412 00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:50.400 Frodo because of his promise, Sam because of 413 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.180 his loyalty, and Gollum because of his promise 414 00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:54.800 to Frodo. 415 00:18:56.660 --> 00:18:58.960 So one of the things to learn as 416 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.840 an author is that sometimes what people are 417 00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:05.120 really feeling can be displaced into something that 418 00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:06.580 isn't directly about that. 419 00:19:06.800 --> 00:19:09.780 So rather than say, Sam was really miffed 420 00:19:09.780 --> 00:19:12.300 about it, you actually do it through how 421 00:19:12.300 --> 00:19:13.760 he's reacting in this argument. 422 00:19:14.360 --> 00:19:16.440 You very clearly get a sense of where 423 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:20.040 they all stand on their current situation, because 424 00:19:20.040 --> 00:19:21.620 they're so tetchy, so grumpy. 425 00:19:22.180 --> 00:19:27.240 So Sam recognises he's not being fair to 426 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:27.500 Gollum. 427 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:29.440 Why did you bring us this way then? 428 00:19:29.900 --> 00:19:32.680 It wasn't Gollum's fault, but he feels that. 429 00:19:35.070 --> 00:19:36.730 And he's also pushing back. 430 00:19:36.810 --> 00:19:37.970 There is no easy answer. 431 00:19:38.050 --> 00:19:40.090 But he's saying even the answer that Gollum 432 00:19:40.090 --> 00:19:41.590 is giving sounds too easy. 433 00:19:41.930 --> 00:19:42.770 He's correct. 434 00:19:43.050 --> 00:19:43.970 Of course he's correct. 435 00:19:44.550 --> 00:19:46.750 But then what are they supposed to do? 436 00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:49.370 But we get the hints that all is 437 00:19:49.370 --> 00:19:49.730 not well. 438 00:19:49.830 --> 00:19:54.090 Remember in the previous chapter, Sam had noticed 439 00:19:54.090 --> 00:19:55.390 the green and the pale light. 440 00:19:55.510 --> 00:19:58.190 We get a glimpse of the green gleam 441 00:19:58.190 --> 00:20:01.970 when the question is asked, is it guarded? 442 00:20:03.390 --> 00:20:06.030 And a second reading, exactly why the green 443 00:20:06.030 --> 00:20:06.810 gleam is flashing. 444 00:20:07.270 --> 00:20:09.670 But first reading, we're thinking that's a danger 445 00:20:09.670 --> 00:20:10.070 sign. 446 00:20:10.410 --> 00:20:11.850 There is some kind of guard there. 447 00:20:13.470 --> 00:20:17.010 And Gollum also shows here, in another foreshadowing 448 00:20:17.010 --> 00:20:20.010 of what later happens, is how he twists 449 00:20:20.010 --> 00:20:22.530 an order to suit his purposes. 450 00:20:22.790 --> 00:20:26.110 Another reason to distrust him, of course, which 451 00:20:26.110 --> 00:20:28.230 both Frodo and Sam are well aware of. 452 00:20:28.730 --> 00:20:31.010 Because he says he was given an order 453 00:20:31.010 --> 00:20:34.530 when he left Mordor to seek the precious. 454 00:20:35.830 --> 00:20:37.430 But he goes on to say, but not 455 00:20:37.430 --> 00:20:38.190 for the black one. 456 00:20:38.530 --> 00:20:40.090 I didn't do it for him. 457 00:20:40.730 --> 00:20:43.210 So we see how he can take the 458 00:20:43.210 --> 00:20:45.570 words and twist them to his own purposes. 459 00:20:48.600 --> 00:20:50.340 So Frodo, of course, is in this invidious 460 00:20:50.340 --> 00:20:52.260 position where he's well aware of all these 461 00:20:52.260 --> 00:20:55.620 doubts, but he's still got to make a 462 00:20:55.620 --> 00:20:56.000 decision. 463 00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:57.800 And there's a good summing up of this, 464 00:20:59.380 --> 00:21:00.900 which lays this all out. 465 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:02.540 I'll read it because it's worth. 466 00:21:03.620 --> 00:21:06.180 This is what the action is in the 467 00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:06.480 chapter. 468 00:21:06.700 --> 00:21:11.620 It's the decision that comes after realising all 469 00:21:11.620 --> 00:21:13.560 of the uncertainties facing him. 470 00:21:14.580 --> 00:21:16.860 Frodo felt a strange certainty that in this 471 00:21:16.860 --> 00:21:19.540 matter, Gollum was for once not so far 472 00:21:19.540 --> 00:21:22.500 from the truth as might be suspected, that 473 00:21:22.500 --> 00:21:24.760 he had somehow found a way out of 474 00:21:24.760 --> 00:21:27.300 Mordor, and at least believed that it was 475 00:21:27.300 --> 00:21:28.480 by his own cunning. 476 00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:31.440 For one thing, he noted that Gollum used 477 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.180 I, and that seemed usually to be a 478 00:21:34.180 --> 00:21:37.220 sign on its rare appearances, that some remnants 479 00:21:37.220 --> 00:21:40.140 of old truth and sincerity were for the 480 00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:40.940 moment on top. 481 00:21:41.580 --> 00:21:43.480 But even if Gollum could be trusted on 482 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.500 this point, Frodo did not forget the wiles 483 00:21:46.500 --> 00:21:47.300 of the enemy. 484 00:21:48.100 --> 00:21:51.580 The escape may have been allowed or arranged, 485 00:21:52.220 --> 00:21:54.060 and well known in the Dark Tower. 486 00:21:54.820 --> 00:21:57.640 And in any case, Gollum was plainly keeping 487 00:21:57.640 --> 00:21:59.000 a good deal back. 488 00:21:59.520 --> 00:22:00.900 This is where the book feels more like 489 00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:04.020 a spy thriller, a kind of John le 490 00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:05.340 Carré almost. 491 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.020 If you think of Gollum, he is a 492 00:22:09.020 --> 00:22:11.860 spy, but which side is he working on? 493 00:22:12.540 --> 00:22:15.780 Does he know the full agenda that his 494 00:22:15.780 --> 00:22:18.900 masters has for him, knowing what he might 495 00:22:18.900 --> 00:22:19.300 do? 496 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:27.500 So it's a fascinating psychology, involving both Frodo 497 00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:30.920 analysing how to trust or not trust what 498 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:34.200 Gollum says, plus what Gollum knows and what 499 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:35.560 he doesn't know and what he's hiding. 500 00:22:39.530 --> 00:22:43.910 So when they push Gollum, he does not 501 00:22:43.910 --> 00:22:45.170 name Cirith Ungol. 502 00:22:45.510 --> 00:22:49.710 The translation of Cirith Ungol is Spider Cleft, 503 00:22:50.270 --> 00:22:54.730 but the narrator does gloss that for us. 504 00:22:56.010 --> 00:22:58.370 And it's notable that at this moment when 505 00:22:58.370 --> 00:23:01.810 the narrator is stepping in, so the Hobbits 506 00:23:01.810 --> 00:23:04.490 writing about this in the future, of course, 507 00:23:04.550 --> 00:23:08.130 is one of the explanations for this backward 508 00:23:08.130 --> 00:23:13.810 looking explanation, is a moment to connect it 509 00:23:13.810 --> 00:23:16.250 to the other narrative which we've just left. 510 00:23:16.810 --> 00:23:18.930 And it's the one moment in this chapter 511 00:23:18.930 --> 00:23:22.050 where Gandalf is most present. 512 00:23:22.610 --> 00:23:25.610 Frodo doesn't know Gandalf has survived, but we're 513 00:23:25.610 --> 00:23:29.630 connected here to the moment when the Palantir 514 00:23:29.630 --> 00:23:33.750 is thrown out of the of Orthanc. 515 00:23:35.030 --> 00:23:39.930 So here, again, it's these moments where if 516 00:23:39.930 --> 00:23:41.790 you unpack it, you're doing lots of things. 517 00:23:41.930 --> 00:23:43.630 You're saying, this is where we are in 518 00:23:43.630 --> 00:23:44.490 the two narratives. 519 00:23:44.790 --> 00:23:46.550 That's how far those lot have got. 520 00:23:47.410 --> 00:23:49.130 This is what's at stake over there. 521 00:23:49.670 --> 00:23:52.010 But they are, in terms of Gandalf, always 522 00:23:52.010 --> 00:23:53.510 thinking about Frodo. 523 00:23:55.150 --> 00:23:57.610 And really Gandalf is very present in this 524 00:23:57.610 --> 00:24:00.070 last section as Frodo makes up his mind. 525 00:24:01.030 --> 00:24:04.350 Even with just a little dream he has 526 00:24:04.350 --> 00:24:07.070 of him riding on an army of Oliphants, 527 00:24:07.210 --> 00:24:09.370 he stays with Frodo. 528 00:24:10.750 --> 00:24:16.670 And the narrator describes Gandalf thinking about Frodo 529 00:24:16.670 --> 00:24:19.630 always with hope and pity, which are really 530 00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:23.610 the chief values in Lord of the Rings. 531 00:24:23.990 --> 00:24:25.750 Hope and pity and love, of course. 532 00:24:27.910 --> 00:24:30.130 And then there's one of those beautiful little 533 00:24:30.130 --> 00:24:34.090 sentences of the small person up against the 534 00:24:34.090 --> 00:24:34.750 massive odds. 535 00:24:36.230 --> 00:24:38.730 Frodo is fully aware of how inadequate he 536 00:24:38.730 --> 00:24:39.610 is to the task. 537 00:24:40.570 --> 00:24:44.010 When you have a hero, he shouldn't, well, 538 00:24:45.210 --> 00:24:46.730 the ancient Greeks used to have people like 539 00:24:46.730 --> 00:24:47.150 Hercules. 540 00:24:48.570 --> 00:24:51.430 We have, I suppose, superheroes, but superheroes are 541 00:24:51.430 --> 00:24:53.350 only interesting when there's kryptonite around. 542 00:24:53.890 --> 00:24:55.690 There is no need for kryptonite with a 543 00:24:55.690 --> 00:24:58.830 halfling because they've already got the odds set 544 00:24:58.830 --> 00:24:59.370 against them. 545 00:24:59.470 --> 00:25:01.390 We need to have a feeling that they 546 00:25:01.390 --> 00:25:02.590 cannot do this easily. 547 00:25:03.950 --> 00:25:06.490 And here he was, a little halfling from 548 00:25:06.490 --> 00:25:09.290 the Shire, a simple hobbit of the quiet 549 00:25:09.290 --> 00:25:12.290 countryside, expected to find a way where the 550 00:25:12.290 --> 00:25:15.670 Great Ones could not go or dared not 551 00:25:15.670 --> 00:25:16.030 go. 552 00:25:17.110 --> 00:25:22.330 Remember, we're on the doorstep of Mordor, which 553 00:25:22.330 --> 00:25:25.870 is where all that Aragorn can do in 554 00:25:25.870 --> 00:25:28.670 a few weeks' time is march up blowing 555 00:25:28.670 --> 00:25:31.670 his trumpets, pretending to attack one of the 556 00:25:31.670 --> 00:25:32.070 Great Ones. 557 00:25:32.110 --> 00:25:33.010 They can't get in. 558 00:25:33.090 --> 00:25:35.870 It has to be the little person who 559 00:25:35.870 --> 00:25:36.230 does. 560 00:25:38.290 --> 00:25:41.030 And what we get as we run up 561 00:25:41.030 --> 00:25:45.900 to this decision, which is the seesaw moment 562 00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:48.780 in the adventure, we're going to go in 563 00:25:48.780 --> 00:25:50.240 by the gate, we're going to try this 564 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:54.120 other way, and the decision is the action, 565 00:25:54.800 --> 00:25:58.600 but we get a moment of prolonged stillness. 566 00:26:00.650 --> 00:26:04.430 We get an overflight of an eagle looking 567 00:26:04.430 --> 00:26:07.750 down, or an imagined eagle. 568 00:26:08.150 --> 00:26:11.230 We see the characters from above, these small 569 00:26:11.230 --> 00:26:13.730 characters hidden in the landscape. 570 00:26:15.790 --> 00:26:20.170 And then following that, the Black Riders overfly 571 00:26:21.410 --> 00:26:22.650 at altitude. 572 00:26:24.090 --> 00:26:26.210 And the stillness is very powerful. 573 00:26:27.790 --> 00:26:32.450 It's underlining that, it's like when you get 574 00:26:32.450 --> 00:26:36.430 those talent shows, for example, where they're giving 575 00:26:36.430 --> 00:26:39.330 a verdict and they run on with the 576 00:26:39.330 --> 00:26:41.690 drumbeat saying, and the answer is, and that 577 00:26:41.690 --> 00:26:46.150 keeps going, you suspend the decision point so 578 00:26:46.150 --> 00:26:47.250 much to build the tension. 579 00:26:47.830 --> 00:26:49.730 In a quieter way, this is what's going 580 00:26:49.730 --> 00:26:50.130 here. 581 00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:52.790 So again, when you're writing, if you've got 582 00:26:52.790 --> 00:26:55.370 some moment where someone's declaring or deciding something, 583 00:26:55.490 --> 00:26:56.530 don't rush your fence. 584 00:26:57.590 --> 00:26:59.390 Spend the time to make it work. 585 00:27:00.710 --> 00:27:02.410 And Frodo, in fact, has a couple of 586 00:27:02.410 --> 00:27:04.750 things which helps him shift. 587 00:27:05.710 --> 00:27:07.510 First is the arrival of the Men of 588 00:27:07.510 --> 00:27:07.950 the South. 589 00:27:08.090 --> 00:27:11.590 They are described very much like an Ottoman 590 00:27:11.590 --> 00:27:17.510 army or a crusading, as in a Islamic 591 00:27:17.510 --> 00:27:22.330 crusading army, how they would be described in 592 00:27:22.330 --> 00:27:25.610 a medieval world or drawn in a medieval 593 00:27:25.610 --> 00:27:29.110 manuscript with their gold rings and their dark 594 00:27:29.110 --> 00:27:33.610 eyes and so on, and colourful, coming from 595 00:27:33.610 --> 00:27:34.190 the South. 596 00:27:35.890 --> 00:27:38.410 And adding to the idea of what it 597 00:27:38.410 --> 00:27:40.590 seems as an exotic to the Northern kingdoms 598 00:27:40.590 --> 00:27:44.090 is Sam's thought that, okay, if they're men 599 00:27:44.090 --> 00:27:46.230 from the South, maybe they've got olyphants with 600 00:27:46.230 --> 00:27:46.410 them. 601 00:27:46.810 --> 00:27:48.490 Here we are very much in a medieval 602 00:27:48.490 --> 00:27:51.750 world, because an olyphant is an old word 603 00:27:51.750 --> 00:27:52.570 for an elephant. 604 00:27:54.050 --> 00:27:57.890 Elephants appear in strange and wonderful forms in 605 00:27:57.890 --> 00:28:00.950 medieval bestiaries, because people didn't know what they 606 00:28:00.950 --> 00:28:01.690 actually were like. 607 00:28:02.290 --> 00:28:03.830 And his poem reflects that. 608 00:28:04.030 --> 00:28:05.330 It's the sort of, I haven't seen this 609 00:28:05.330 --> 00:28:06.630 thing, but this is what I think they're 610 00:28:06.630 --> 00:28:10.590 like, including such nonsense ideas that they never 611 00:28:10.590 --> 00:28:12.270 lie on the ground or even to die. 612 00:28:12.590 --> 00:28:17.110 It's that idea of the imperfect knowledge of 613 00:28:17.110 --> 00:28:18.810 something you're hearing about in a kind of 614 00:28:18.810 --> 00:28:21.550 Chinese whispers game, where it goes from person 615 00:28:21.550 --> 00:28:23.170 to person, you never quite know. 616 00:28:24.650 --> 00:28:26.610 And you see that Sam is curious. 617 00:28:26.810 --> 00:28:28.270 He wants to know if there's an olyphant 618 00:28:28.270 --> 00:28:30.910 and Gollum really isn't, that's another difference in 619 00:28:30.910 --> 00:28:31.490 their character. 620 00:28:32.730 --> 00:28:36.170 But Sam's openness and excitement about the world 621 00:28:36.170 --> 00:28:40.710 and his recitation of what is a shyer 622 00:28:40.710 --> 00:28:45.070 poem in this most unshyer-like, unfunny situation 623 00:28:45.070 --> 00:28:48.610 is what prompts laughter and laughter is said, 624 00:28:48.710 --> 00:28:51.090 it released him from his hesitation. 625 00:28:52.590 --> 00:28:55.270 The shyer and Sam helps him make the 626 00:28:55.270 --> 00:28:55.670 decision. 627 00:28:56.450 --> 00:28:58.650 And he goes back to the idea, which 628 00:28:58.650 --> 00:29:01.230 is how we started in this conversation, that 629 00:29:01.230 --> 00:29:06.930 trusting Gollum for a third time will hopefully 630 00:29:06.930 --> 00:29:10.670 produce the way into Mordor that he requires. 631 00:29:12.110 --> 00:29:14.050 And Gollum gets the last word in this 632 00:29:14.050 --> 00:29:14.370 chapter. 633 00:29:15.050 --> 00:29:18.410 He says, soft and quick as shadows we 634 00:29:18.410 --> 00:29:19.190 must be. 635 00:29:20.310 --> 00:29:23.530 So it ends in uncertainty. 636 00:29:24.650 --> 00:29:27.270 But we have moved on, we have made 637 00:29:27.270 --> 00:29:28.950 the decision, we are progressing. 638 00:29:29.790 --> 00:29:33.270 So we started having been told we arrive. 639 00:29:34.350 --> 00:29:36.330 And now we've been told, actually, there's a 640 00:29:36.330 --> 00:29:39.850 long way, not much further to go, because 641 00:29:39.850 --> 00:29:41.890 the way is shut, you can't go in 642 00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:42.250 that way. 643 00:29:43.450 --> 00:29:44.830 And so the stillness is broken. 644 00:29:46.390 --> 00:29:49.890 And they move on into one of my 645 00:29:49.890 --> 00:29:53.010 favourite chapters, because they're going to reach Ithilien, 646 00:29:53.110 --> 00:29:55.570 which is going to be a green breath 647 00:29:55.570 --> 00:29:58.350 of fresh air after the dust and the 648 00:29:58.350 --> 00:30:00.690 ashes and the marshes that we've been spending, 649 00:30:01.210 --> 00:30:03.490 and the rocks that we spent the last 650 00:30:03.490 --> 00:30:06.330 three chapters lingering in. 651 00:30:07.330 --> 00:30:08.790 Thank you very much for listening. 652 00:30:13.610 --> 00:30:17.810 Thanks for listening to MythMakers Podcast, brought to 653 00:30:17.810 --> 00:30:20.010 you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. 654 00:30:20.750 --> 00:30:24.590 Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. 655 00:30:25.270 --> 00:30:28.170 Find out about our online courses, in-person 656 00:30:28.170 --> 00:30:31.250 stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for 657 00:30:31.250 --> 00:30:32.230 great gifts. 658 00:30:32.230 --> 00:30:35.590 Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find 659 00:30:35.590 --> 00:30:38.030 your favourite podcasts worldwide.