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Hello and welcome to Mythmakers.

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Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans

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and fantasy creatives brought to you by the

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Oxford Centre for Fantasy.

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My name is Julia Golding.

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And for those of you who have been

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following my sidecast on Lord of the Rings,

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you will realise that we have very recently

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completed the first book of the Two Towers.

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And we thought we would wrap this up

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by highlighting some of the favourite bits from

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listeners over the last few months when I've

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been working on this and put them together

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in a little package for you to enjoy.

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It's also meant as a taster for those

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who haven't yet dipped into the full series

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to see the kind of thing I get

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up to when I describe what's going on.

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So, with no more ado, let us start.

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And we begin right at the beginning of

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the Two Towers when things have gone awry.

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And here I look out, what has gone

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wrong with Aragorn and what might be the

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reason behind his seeming lapse in leadership?

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One thing which I've always puzzled about here,

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which is that Aragorn is oddly negligent.

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He runs up the hill knowing this is

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a dangerous situation, tells Sam, follow me, but

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makes no allowances for Hobbit legs, doesn't seem

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to notice Sam isn't with him for a

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very long time.

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It could be that he's just not a

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very good leader at this point.

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But I was thinking that this feels to

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me as though Tolkien is imagining the panic

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coming out of this crisis point.

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And I don't think it's a panic generated

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by the ring, which could be one explanation

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for it.

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It seems to me it's one of those

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fortuitous accidents that the presiding fate of this

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world needs to have them scatter at this

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point because they all got vital roles to

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play.

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It's that sense there is a greater plan

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beneath it.

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And it could be why Aragorn is acting

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in an un-Aragorn-like way of not

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noticing that he's left Sam behind.

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I suppose that gives you the sense that

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fate is driving them at this point.

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They're not quite in control of their choices.

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And also Aragorn is shown to be, I

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suppose a little bit unheroic in that he

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jumps in shouting Elendil, Elendil, but he's missed

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the battle.

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So there's a lot of misfiring, misdirection, misunderstandings,

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all part of this frenetic activity.

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But of course, the blade may be empty

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of enemies, but it's not empty of everybody

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because he comes upon Boromir lying on his

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deathbed.

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The language around Boromir begins to change a

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bit.

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We are moving into the Aragorn register of

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heroic deeds and kings and queens, that kind

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of world, as opposed to the Hobbit everyday

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sense.

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They have a moving exchange and that exchange

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masks some suspense that Tolkien is slipping in

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there.

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The suspense about which Hobbits have been taken.

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If we remember the end of The Fellowship

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of the Ring, we know, but the Aragorn,

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Gimli and Legolas don't know.

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So it makes their decision even harder.

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After Boromir is allowed his sort of grandeur

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of passing in that he makes his confession,

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he sort of puts things as right as

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he can at that point.

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So he ends up as a hero rather

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than a villain.

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Aragorn is given a brief soliloquy.

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It does feel like something from a stage

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convention where he's lamenting the fault that he

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has committed by making mistakes.

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I suppose here we are reminded of the

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sort of heraldic speeches of Arthurian knights, those

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kinds of things.

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So it is quite a stage scene with

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Boromir lying surrounded by the bodies of his

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foes.

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It's a sort of end of Hamlet feel

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to it.

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So that could be going on somewhere in

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the back of Tolkien's mind.

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Legolas here is the one who has the

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idea, because Aragorn is flummoxed.

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He's hesitating and Legolas is the one with

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the plan.

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He says that they must bury Boromir or

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do his funeral rites and then follow.

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And he sums it up as, let us

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do first what we must do.

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So very sensible.

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And of course, a big part of the

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enjoyment of Two Towers is encountering the culture

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of Rohan.

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And here we have the beginning of that

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relationship between what's left of the Fellowship arriving

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to meet the riders of Rohan.

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And here I have a little description of

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how Tolkien introduces us to this marvellous horse

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mad culture.

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We have heard of this culture before.

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If we cast our mind back to the

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Council of Elrond, it was one of the

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details in that.

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Gandalf was telling his story.

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So we've had a bit of an introduction.

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But here we get a potted history, like

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a couple of lines about their history.

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He calls them true-hearted and bold.

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And obviously, their culture is the horse culture.

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And they have songs rather than books.

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Again, this all chimes with the Anglo-Saxon

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world, really.

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And he calls them children of men, i

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.e. they're from younger days.

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This reminds me a bit of the description

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of Arthur's court in Sir Gawain and the

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Green Knight, where the court is described as

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childlike.

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Interesting adjective.

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But I think it is trying to sense

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that the idea here is that they are

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people from an earlier time, the beginnings of

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culture.

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He mentions that they are akin to the

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Bardings.

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That's the people around Lake-Town, that area.

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And Bjornings, Bjorn, the shape-changer in the

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woods.

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So they come from the north.

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That's where they've come from.

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And they also refer here to the rumour

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that was repeated, I think it's at the

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Council of Elrond, that they send horses in

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tribute to Mordor.

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And this is one of those questions that's

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going to be aired in this chapter.

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And Aragorn stands with Boromir by rejecting the

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rumour.

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And we soon learn that he actually has

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deep knowledge, having ridden with the riders earlier

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on in his life.

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We get the wonderful arrival of the riders

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of Rohan.

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Note here that Tolkien is so much thinking

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about the horses in association with Rohan that

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the people are described pretty much like horses.

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The men that rode them matched them well,

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matched the horses, tall and long-limbed, their

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hair flaxen pale flowed under the light helms

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and streamed in long braids behind them.

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Their faces were stern and keen.

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So they have manes too.

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It's just a bit of fun description.

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I love the drama of this moment where

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the three are hidden by their cloaks and

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they're not spotted until they stand up.

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And I think when you think of the

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film version, they pretty much took the stage

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directions from the book and transposed immediately into

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the film.

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So I can't help, as much as I

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try and get rid of thinking about the

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film, I can't help but think of the

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choreography of the horses sort of turning around

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and spinning in a circle and ending up

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with the spears pointing at the interlopers.

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It was well done by the stud riders.

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But Tolkien got there first.

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So they're honouring Tolkien.

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Moving away from the Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas

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grouping, we're going back to the hobbits now.

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And Pippin has been a bit of a

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dead weight in some ways, comic relief in

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the fellowship.

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And now he comes into his own and

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we look at that chapter where Pippin steps

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forward and becomes a hero we always knew

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he would be.

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What I find interesting in this chapter about

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Pippin, or one of the many things, is

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how he goes from passive regret to taking

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action.

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And the passive regret is characterised by him

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thinking of himself as a piece of luggage

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that is being sort of carried around by

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other people awaiting collection.

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Now, the idea of luggage is a very

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20th century Edwardian railway idea, which fits with

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the hobbit world, which does feel more modern

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than many of the other cultures.

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So it fits with the world of the

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hobbits, because you can't imagine orcs having concierges

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and luggage.

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So it's part of the big gap between

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him and the people who are holding him

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hostage.

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He's sort of seeing himself as other people

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have seen him as he shouldn't have been

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there.

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He's a fish out of water very clearly.

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But one of the things all the hobbits

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share in common is once they reach that

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point, they bounce back.

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And he bounces back by taking advantage of

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orc politics.

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So this is the second point I wanted

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to bring out is here we actually get

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behind the doors, the closed doors of orcs.

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If you think about the fights to this

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point in Moria, we never really understood much

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about the individual orcs.

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Here they are named, we understand their factions,

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we understand their politics.

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So we've got three main factions.

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We've got the orcs that have come down

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from the mines to avenge their leader.

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We've got the Mordor orcs and Grishnak is

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their leader.

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And we have the Isengard orcs who call

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themselves the Uruk-hai and Ugluk is their

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leader.

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So remember that this is written at the

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time of war, where the allies were up

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against uneasy alliances between, one day they shifted,

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but the Russians at one point until they

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swapped sides, the Germans, the Italians and so

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on.

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You can see in the back of Tolkien's

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mind that he is reflecting on the fact

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that you're not usually just facing one foe

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with one agenda.

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You're facing many with many agendas.

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The Japanese as well, of course, in that

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war.

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We get a snatch of black speech and

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a hint of their culture because obviously for

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Tolkien, cultures start with language.

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But fortunately, because you have the different factions,

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they lapse into using ordinary language.

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And so Pippin is able to follow the

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debate.

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I just want to underline at this point,

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if we're thinking about the author's journey, just

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how useful some version of common speech is.

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Unless you go the Douglas Adams route of

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having a Babelfish or a spell to translate

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things, you need to make the fact that

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people can communicate less of a burden.

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You don't want to always be going through

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translation.

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It's very important for fantasy.

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So if you're writing a story where people

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have different languages, find some way of dealing

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with that so it's not a bore.

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Unless, of course, the point is that your

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character can't understand what's going on around them.

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But I wouldn't hang on in that position

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for too long.

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When you're reading Lord of the Rings, you

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01:12:42.460 --> 01:12:46.240
cannot be ignorant of the beauty of the

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01:12:46.240 --> 01:12:48.260
language that he uses.

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It's just the most marvellous resident stuff.

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And in this chapter, I celebrated how Tolkien

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01:12:55.760 --> 01:13:00.000
dips into almost Churchillian language for Gandalf on

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01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:00.620
his return.

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So let's all enjoy a bit of Tolkien

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01:13:02.920 --> 01:13:04.520
writing at his most eloquent.

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01:13:07.610 --> 01:13:09.710
This chapter is full of the most wonderful

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01:13:09.710 --> 01:13:10.430
phrases.

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He goes on to say, Be merry, we

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01:13:13.070 --> 01:13:16.290
meet again at the turn of the tide.

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01:13:17.030 --> 01:13:19.510
So we are in a pivotal point in

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01:13:19.510 --> 01:13:21.490
this story, and Gandalf is telling us we

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01:13:21.490 --> 01:13:21.690
are.

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01:13:22.170 --> 01:13:23.210
This is the fight back.

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So in terms of the Second World War,

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this is what happens after Dunkirk hits the

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01:13:31.650 --> 01:13:35.630
next few years, the arrival of America in

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01:13:35.630 --> 01:13:36.910
the war, that kind of thing.

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So we're not at the end, but we're

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01:13:39.330 --> 01:13:41.210
at that point where it begins to push

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01:13:41.210 --> 01:13:42.130
back the other way.

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Gimli in this chapter is really hung up

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01:13:46.230 --> 01:13:50.670
on getting it wrong about thinking Gandalf was

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01:13:50.670 --> 01:13:51.070
Saruman.

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01:13:52.590 --> 01:13:55.770
But Gandalf has some words of comfort for

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01:13:55.770 --> 01:13:56.170
him here.

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He says, Indeed, I am Saruman.

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Saruman as he should have been, because he

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01:14:01.210 --> 01:14:03.110
has taken over the status of the white,

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01:14:03.630 --> 01:14:06.450
which is more than just a badge of

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01:14:06.450 --> 01:14:09.970
the head of the order of wizards.

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It is actually a kind of being which

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01:14:13.010 --> 01:14:15.270
Saruman has broken away from by wanting to

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01:14:15.270 --> 01:14:16.970
be Saruman of many colors.

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And Gandalf goes on to say, I have

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01:14:20.130 --> 01:14:22.990
forgotten much that I thought I knew, and

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01:14:22.990 --> 01:14:26.330
learned again much that I had forgotten, which

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01:14:26.330 --> 01:14:27.890
in itself sounds like a riddle.

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01:14:28.590 --> 01:14:31.310
So I said the theme of this chapter

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01:14:31.310 --> 01:14:32.690
was all about puzzles.

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What we discover here is that Gandalf is

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01:14:35.650 --> 01:14:37.570
the biggest puzzle of them all.

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01:14:37.690 --> 01:14:40.270
We've been led not to answering the question

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01:14:40.270 --> 01:14:42.230
about where Merry and Pippin are.

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01:14:42.930 --> 01:14:45.830
It's actually who Gandalf is and what role

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01:14:45.830 --> 01:14:47.790
he has to play is the real puzzle.

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01:14:49.210 --> 01:14:54.750
Though that's not entirely answered, because the real

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01:14:54.750 --> 01:14:57.810
answer lies in the world beyond Middle Earth,

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01:14:58.150 --> 01:15:00.810
the world of the gods and Iluvatar and

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01:15:00.810 --> 01:15:04.510
things which a Middle Earth story doesn't really

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01:15:04.510 --> 01:15:06.050
answer, but we only sense.

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01:15:06.750 --> 01:15:08.670
We get lots of other kinds of answers

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01:15:08.670 --> 01:15:08.990
though.

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01:15:10.090 --> 01:15:11.530
And the first one of those is how

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01:15:11.530 --> 01:15:14.610
Gandalf has kept up with what's been going

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01:15:14.610 --> 01:15:14.990
on.

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01:15:15.730 --> 01:15:19.290
And the traces, the interweaving that we mentioned

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01:15:19.290 --> 01:15:22.470
in earlier chapters begins to, you know, the

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01:15:22.470 --> 01:15:23.790
knot is tied off on them.

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01:15:24.130 --> 01:15:26.950
We get to see that the eagle that

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01:15:26.950 --> 01:15:28.910
Legolas saw on a number of occasions was

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01:15:28.910 --> 01:15:30.890
indeed sent by Gandalf.

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01:15:31.370 --> 01:15:33.190
But when you have a character who comes

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01:15:33.190 --> 01:15:35.790
in like this, who is so powerful, you

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01:15:35.790 --> 01:15:37.250
don't want to make them Superman.

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01:15:37.670 --> 01:15:40.390
You don't want to give them too much

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01:15:40.390 --> 01:15:40.750
power.

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They have to have kryptonite to make them

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01:15:42.730 --> 01:15:43.170
work.

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01:15:44.010 --> 01:15:46.130
And so Gandalf knows a lot, but he

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01:15:46.130 --> 01:15:48.530
also doesn't know some things.

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01:15:49.550 --> 01:15:53.350
He is able to sense where the ring

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01:15:53.350 --> 01:15:53.630
is.

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The ring has now passed beyond my help.

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01:15:56.830 --> 01:15:58.710
But he didn't know about Sam, for example.

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01:16:00.390 --> 01:16:04.450
He can see how a sore trial it

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01:16:04.450 --> 01:16:08.390
was for Boromir, but he didn't know that

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01:16:08.390 --> 01:16:12.350
that happened to Boromir until Aragorn tells him.

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01:16:12.930 --> 01:16:15.150
Doing this audacious move, think how audacious it

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01:16:15.150 --> 01:16:17.570
is to bring back someone from the dead,

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01:16:17.670 --> 01:16:20.050
which is basically what has happened to Gandalf

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01:16:20.050 --> 01:16:20.590
here.

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01:16:21.190 --> 01:16:23.290
Not quite dead because he's not quite human,

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01:16:23.290 --> 01:16:25.110
but that is the effect.

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01:16:26.490 --> 01:16:28.770
It is very bold and very brave to

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01:16:28.770 --> 01:16:29.330
do this.

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01:16:30.070 --> 01:16:34.570
But it isn't him riding on a white

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01:16:34.570 --> 01:16:38.850
charger to sweep all before him with some

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01:16:38.850 --> 01:16:39.510
magic spell.

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01:16:39.790 --> 01:16:42.290
He has to come and enter in the

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01:16:42.290 --> 01:16:43.470
thick of it again.

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01:16:43.890 --> 01:16:46.450
He has to get down to the granular

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01:16:46.450 --> 01:16:48.010
level of dealing with people.

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01:16:48.710 --> 01:17:01.090
Otherwise, the answer

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01:17:01.090 --> 01:17:02.970
to the question of how that tide is

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01:17:02.970 --> 01:17:03.730
being turned.

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01:17:05.640 --> 01:17:10.280
And finally, in our selection of clips, we

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01:17:10.280 --> 01:17:15.040
return to Rohan and we meet the people

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01:17:15.040 --> 01:17:17.619
of Rohan in a much better place where

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01:17:17.619 --> 01:17:22.099
they have overcome the poison of Wormtongue.

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01:17:22.720 --> 01:17:24.440
And here we have a celebration of that

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01:17:24.440 --> 01:17:27.620
culture in how its youth and age come

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01:17:27.620 --> 01:17:30.620
together to form the bond that actually takes

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01:17:30.620 --> 01:17:33.160
them all the way to the fields of

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01:17:33.160 --> 01:17:34.320
the Battle of Pelennor.

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01:17:36.650 --> 01:17:38.510
So I mentioned that we have a youth

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01:17:38.510 --> 01:17:40.970
and age theme running through this chapter.

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01:17:41.510 --> 01:17:43.830
It comes to a head when Éomer comes

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01:17:43.830 --> 01:17:48.330
in because he is the young man offering

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01:17:48.330 --> 01:17:50.110
allegiance to the old man.

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01:17:51.370 --> 01:17:54.350
Éomer coming forward and offering his allegiance, an

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01:17:54.350 --> 01:17:56.890
act which is copied by all the other

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01:17:56.890 --> 01:18:02.930
warriors during this chapter, reasserts the ancient king

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01:18:02.930 --> 01:18:05.190
at the top and the youth coming to

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01:18:05.190 --> 01:18:06.490
support and to take over.

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01:18:06.730 --> 01:18:10.550
And this is take over when the time

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01:18:10.550 --> 01:18:12.430
comes, because he's named as Éomer.

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01:18:13.010 --> 01:18:16.610
But we also get Wormtongue trying to use

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01:18:16.610 --> 01:18:18.630
that youth and age to unpick it.

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01:18:19.050 --> 01:18:20.090
That's what he's been doing.

397
01:18:20.530 --> 01:18:21.790
He's been saying, you're too old for all

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01:18:21.790 --> 01:18:22.210
of this.

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01:18:22.550 --> 01:18:23.670
And that is his argument.

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01:18:23.890 --> 01:18:27.630
He's saying, you must put your feet up.

401
01:18:28.450 --> 01:18:30.290
They're trying to lure you to your death.

402
01:18:31.070 --> 01:18:32.710
That's the kind of poison.

403
01:18:33.010 --> 01:18:34.530
You can see how he's been feeding this

404
01:18:34.530 --> 01:18:36.670
poison to Theoden.

405
01:18:37.470 --> 01:18:39.050
But it's too late.

406
01:18:40.110 --> 01:18:43.690
Grímr's poison is now leaving Theoden.

407
01:18:44.790 --> 01:18:47.930
And what we get here is the moment

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01:18:47.930 --> 01:18:52.290
when aged realises it isn't so old.

409
01:18:52.890 --> 01:18:56.690
And the decision point is, will you not

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01:18:56.690 --> 01:18:57.670
take the sword?

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01:18:58.410 --> 01:19:01.230
And being reminded of the strength of his

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01:19:01.230 --> 01:19:03.670
youth and the fact that his best days

413
01:19:03.670 --> 01:19:05.670
are behind him, he's still got it in

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01:19:05.670 --> 01:19:05.950
him.

415
01:19:06.450 --> 01:19:09.570
Theoden turns into the warrior king at that

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01:19:09.570 --> 01:19:11.130
point when he takes the sword and we

417
01:19:11.130 --> 01:19:13.710
get another little poem.

418
01:19:14.390 --> 01:19:16.450
Here it's got the hint of the alliteration.

419
01:19:16.690 --> 01:19:19.690
Arise now, arise, riders of Theoden.

420
01:19:19.790 --> 01:19:22.250
Can you see the R sound?

421
01:19:22.470 --> 01:19:24.070
Arise, arise, riders.

422
01:19:25.190 --> 01:19:27.450
Dire deeds awake, deedee.

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01:19:27.730 --> 01:19:29.450
Dark is to eastward.

424
01:19:30.330 --> 01:19:33.390
Let the horse be bridled, horn be sounded.

425
01:19:33.670 --> 01:19:38.810
That's got H sounds combining the two parts

426
01:19:38.810 --> 01:19:40.430
of that literative verse.

427
01:19:41.010 --> 01:19:42.750
Forth aeolingas.

428
01:19:44.070 --> 01:19:49.870
That little ditty there, little war cry, is

429
01:19:49.870 --> 01:19:53.150
probably the most Old English style poem actually

430
01:19:53.150 --> 01:19:55.890
in this section because of the alliteration.

431
01:19:57.710 --> 01:19:59.930
And in response, we get one of the

432
01:19:59.930 --> 01:20:04.090
first little snatches of Old English in this

433
01:20:04.090 --> 01:20:07.150
refrain, westu Theoden hal, which is like a

434
01:20:07.150 --> 01:20:14.030
kind of greeting or praise phrase, which Aema

435
01:20:14.030 --> 01:20:17.410
says, never again shall it be said, Gandalf,

436
01:20:17.490 --> 01:20:18.890
that you come only with grief.

437
01:20:19.010 --> 01:20:21.510
So it's pushing back on all the things

438
01:20:21.510 --> 01:20:23.450
that Wormtongue has been saying.

439
01:20:26.140 --> 01:20:28.320
I hope you've enjoyed following me through this

440
01:20:28.320 --> 01:20:30.760
first part of The Two Towers.

441
01:20:31.100 --> 01:20:33.460
And we've already made a little start on

442
01:20:33.460 --> 01:20:36.440
the second part, that's book four, where we

443
01:20:36.440 --> 01:20:39.520
have rejoined Frodo and Sam and, of course,

444
01:20:40.180 --> 01:20:40.820
met Gollum.

445
01:20:40.920 --> 01:20:42.520
So please do come and join me for

446
01:20:42.520 --> 01:20:45.540
further sidecasts as we read our way through

447
01:20:45.540 --> 01:20:46.620
The Lord of the Rings.

448
01:20:47.000 --> 01:20:48.480
Thank you so much for listening.