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Hello and welcome to Mythmakers.

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Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans

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and fantasy creatives brought to you by the

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Oxford Centre for Fantasy.

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My name is Julia Golding and today I'm

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doing one of my favourite things which is

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talking to another author.

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So I'm delighted to introduce to the Myth

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Makers audience SJ Poyton who has just

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written a fantastic book, middle grade book called

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Mammoth Rider and if you're looking at this

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on YouTube you'll see it has an absolute

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splendid mammoth on the front and SJ

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has a splendid mammoth sitting behind her which

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looks like the same picture.

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There it is.

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So SJ how did you get to

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the stage when you had a book published

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because that is a long journey for most

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people.

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How did it happen for you?

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Well mine was possibly longer than most people.

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So I started writing when my children were

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coming up three and coming up to a

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year old and when it was published a

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few weeks ago it was two days shy

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of my eldest 22nd birthday.

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So it was literally 19 years.

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So for me the journey was the same

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as bringing a child from infant to adult

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and in that time I've written lots of

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books like 10, 12 novels, picture books, chapter

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books in all sorts always generally all raised

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children or YA started with YA fantasy went

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on to the middle grade and had some

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successes.

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So I was a longlisted for the Times

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Chicken House children's writing competition twice, Undiscovered Voices,

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a load of other competition wins or kind

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of short listings, long listings.

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But this is the first time where actually

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the luck has gone all the way to

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in print.

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And so yeah, it's been a long, long

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journey but the art of not giving up

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has been key and having lots of supportive

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people around me like my writer groups, Abingdon

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Writers, Scooby, Oxford Writers, Green Pen, Golden Egg,

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people like that has really, really helped because

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they lift you up when you're down and

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they celebrate you when things go well and

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that's so important when you're doing something that's

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more of a marathon than a sprint.

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Yeah, so amongst that list, you mentioned Scooby

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for those people who don't know, it's an

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acronym for the Society of Children Book Writers

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and Illustrators.

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It has an American section, which I think

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is where it started, but it's UK section

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and in fact, it's one of the places

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if someone is almost ready to publish and

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they ask me advice and they're working for

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the younger end of the market, I always

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say, that's a great place to go.

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It's very professionally run and they have conferences

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and it connects you to the industry in

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a way that your writer support group can't.

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You sound like you had a good experience

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through the Scooby Network.

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Yes, so I volunteered, so I was part

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of the conference committee for a year.

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I ran their professional series, but then ended

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up being called the Industry Insiders, where I

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did, I think, six different talks across the

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year in central London, in Piccadilly, where we

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would do a different theme each time and

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we would have industry professionals as a panel

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event and I chair and we would have

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talks.

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So, yes, I was also in the Scooby

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Oxford critique group for a very long time,

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which is brilliant, but was also kind of

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very humbling because we had Terry Terry, Paula

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Harrison, Nicky Thornton, Amy Butler Green, who is,

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and they're all bestsellers, either this side of

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the pond or the other side of the

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pond and it would just be like me.

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But now you can go to the meeting

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and say, look, everybody, I've got a fabulous

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hardback.

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Yeah, that's lovely.

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So, let's turn to Mammoth Rider itself.

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Tell us a little bit about it and

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why you wrote it.

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I mean, it is something where it does

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what it says on the tin.

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It is about mammoths.

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So, tell us, how would you describe this

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book?

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Mammoth Rider, I would say, is a climate

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change STEM action adventure story with a neurodiverse

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own voice protagonist.

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So, essentially, it's about three children that race

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across the tundra to help save a herd

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of mammoths that have been to help in

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the battle against global warming from hunters.

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So, it's just a big adventure story, really.

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I just wanted to create a big adventure

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story, which kids would enjoy the reading of,

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that was quite fast paced.

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So, you know, a lot of children find

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it difficult to read a book or even

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watch a film now because concentration is getting

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smaller.

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So, I wanted to do something exciting.

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I wanted to do the mammoth cloning.

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In fact, it was a book that I

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didn't actually intend on writing.

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I was researching for a book, which was

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again science fiction, but for YA thriller about

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Neanderthal human Chimeras.

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And I started reading a book for research

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called How to Clone a Mammoth by Professor

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Beth Shapiro, which was about de-extinction science,

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but more broadly, it was called How to

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Clone a Mammoth, because apparently if you're in

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that business, nobody says, when are we going

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to see a dinosaur or a dodo?

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They would say, when are we going to

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see mammoths?

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So, but I discovered there was a theoretical

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use for them, which is to help slow

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the rate of global warming.

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And also there's a place waiting to house

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them, which is called Pliocene Park in Siberia.

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And I just thought kids would love this.

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And it's a good way to get kids

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thinking about STEM solutions for climate change and

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conservation.

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So, I just got a bit distracted and

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started to go down a wormhole of all

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things mammoths, really.

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Yeah.

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So, just to pick up on the use,

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how they would combat climate change, because that's

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not an obvious connection, though it's explained in

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the book.

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What is it that a mammoth can do

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to the landscape that would help with that?

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Well, mammoths were one of those cornerstone kind

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of species.

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And so, they can really help shape not

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just the ecosystem, but the geography of a

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landscape.

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There aren't very many creatures that can do

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that.

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Humans are one, beavers are another.

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But what they can do is just live

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their best mammoth life.

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So, there are areas in the Arctic where

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there is land that has been permanently frozen

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for thousands of years.

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Within that frozen soil, there is massive amounts

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of methane gas, much more methane gas frozen

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and locked in that ice than there is

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currently in our atmosphere.

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However, as the world warms, our ice caps

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are melting.

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That is creating more snow in areas of

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the Arctic where there's not been snow for

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thousands of years.

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The snow is blanketing that permafrost and it's

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insulating it, which is making the permafrost beneath

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the snow thaw.

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And as it melts, it releases the methane

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gas back into the atmosphere, which increases the

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rate of global warming.

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And the way that mammoths can help is

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by just living their best mammoth life.

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They trudge along the tundra.

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They clear that blanket because the food is

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underneath that blanket of snow.

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And with that blanket cleared, it stops that

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cycle because the permafrost stays frozen.

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And so, that nasty methane gas stays locked

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in the ice.

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So, it's not very obvious until you see

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it and then you go, oh yeah, I

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can see how that would happen.

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You've chosen Greenland for your population, which is

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an interesting choice at the current time.

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Yes.

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But yeah, let's move on from that.

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A different way of looking at Greenland.

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So, you mentioned you had a list of

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things at the beginning that it sort of

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fitted into.

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So, you had the environmental action adventure and

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absolutely the star of the piece is the

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mammoth herd, particularly the mammoth baby.

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Do you say Nyala?

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Nyala.

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It's a secret to be told.

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I just thought it was a pretty spelling.

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And then somebody went, how do you say

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it?

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And I was like, oh.

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Because it's the sound of that creature.

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So, imagine a sort of.

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So, we're all around there going, I think

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it's Nyala.

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It was a really interesting editorial as we're

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all around there trying to work out the

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correct way to say her.

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Who's a rare white mammoth.

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Is that an albino mammoth or a white

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mammoth?

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No, it's a white mammoth.

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It's a particular species of.

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Well, what they think is because they obviously

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there's a lot of mammoths coming out of

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the permafrost as it thaws.

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And a lot of those still have their

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fur on, still have their last meal in

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their stomach.

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But most importantly, we can get DNA from

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them and we can study that DNA.

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And so, our understanding of mammoths is ever

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evolving every time we get a new piece

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of DNA to study.

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One of the things we do know about

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mammoths is that their DNA sequence for hair

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colour was similar to humans.

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So, the iconic image that you have when

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you summoned a mammoth in your mind will

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be brown.

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But they could come in different colours too.

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So, they reckon about 3% of them

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would have been lighter, blonder mammoths.

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And then the rest would have been a

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brownie russet and a lot of kind of

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red jeans.

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There is no evidence either way as to

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whether they went all the way to white.

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But you know, it is a fantasy that

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I'm saying.

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Yeah, you're doing sci-fi.

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But we do know they did come in

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different colours.

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We've never found one in a different colour.

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But I think, personally, if you look at

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the natural world and any animals that were

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born a different colour, very rarely make it

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to adulthood or even out of infancy.

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And the amount of animals that we are

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finding in the ice is going to be

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a very small percentage than what actually ever

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roamed the Earth.

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So, I think the percentages of us finding

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one of these 3% of the ones

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that were lighter colours is just statistically very,

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very small.

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But theoretically, they should have been able to

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come.

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Theoretically possible, which is what matters in this

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case.

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Because I would say that, whilst we're talking

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about fantasy and sci-fi, it feels very

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real.

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It feels as though this could be a

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real life story happening in 10 years' time

272
00:12:09.620 --> 00:12:11.140
or maybe a bit longer than that, 20

273
00:12:11.140 --> 00:12:11.700
years' time.

274
00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:14.460
Time for the herd to grow.

275
00:12:15.760 --> 00:12:18.320
So, as well as the environmental theme and

276
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:22.560
the action adventure, you mentioned it's about dyslexia,

277
00:12:23.300 --> 00:12:27.960
dyspraxia, those issues, which you talk about at

278
00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:29.220
the end in a very interesting way.

279
00:12:29.260 --> 00:12:29.860
Do you want to tell us a bit

280
00:12:29.860 --> 00:12:31.620
about that and the way the book is

281
00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:33.900
actually set out with that?

282
00:12:33.900 --> 00:12:34.000
Yes.

283
00:12:34.380 --> 00:12:37.660
So, I am neurodiverse.

284
00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:39.880
I have dyslexia, which most people know what

285
00:12:39.880 --> 00:12:40.780
dyslexia is.

286
00:12:40.900 --> 00:12:43.860
It is when your brain doesn't process the

287
00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:45.720
written word in the same way as neurotypical

288
00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:46.120
people.

289
00:12:46.700 --> 00:12:49.340
It means accessing anything which is written down

290
00:12:49.340 --> 00:12:50.080
is difficult.

291
00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:51.620
Learning to read is difficult.

292
00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:53.120
Spelling is difficult.

293
00:12:53.380 --> 00:12:56.140
I always like to describe my spelling in

294
00:12:56.140 --> 00:12:58.760
the words of the very famous philosopher Winnie

295
00:12:58.760 --> 00:13:01.560
the Pooh, which is my spelling is wobbly,

296
00:13:01.940 --> 00:13:03.320
all the right letters in order.

297
00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:09.700
But I also have dyscalculia, which is much

298
00:13:09.700 --> 00:13:10.540
less understood.

299
00:13:10.900 --> 00:13:14.200
Very few people know what dyscalculia is.

300
00:13:14.640 --> 00:13:16.840
That's probably because it only affects 2%

301
00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:19.180
of the population rather than 10%, which is

302
00:13:19.180 --> 00:13:19.980
dyslexia.

303
00:13:20.680 --> 00:13:23.000
Dyscalculia is like dyslexia but with numbers.

304
00:13:23.620 --> 00:13:27.600
So, I can't dial a telephone number.

305
00:13:27.880 --> 00:13:29.460
I don't know my times tables.

306
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:32.000
Pin numbers are a disaster.

307
00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:34.420
I cannot put four pin numbers in and

308
00:13:34.420 --> 00:13:35.560
get the right number.

309
00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:38.300
I can't tell the time on an analog

310
00:13:38.300 --> 00:13:41.820
clock or a 48-hour digital one after

311
00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.280
one o'clock in the afternoon because that

312
00:13:43.280 --> 00:13:44.000
involves math.

313
00:13:45.900 --> 00:13:49.240
I also have something called dyspraxia, which is

314
00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.180
like the other two with coordination and dexterity.

315
00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:53.860
I don't know my left and my right.

316
00:13:54.680 --> 00:13:55.680
I'm very clumsy.

317
00:13:56.400 --> 00:13:58.920
Now, when I was growing up, it was

318
00:13:58.920 --> 00:14:01.340
widely acknowledged that there were issues, but because

319
00:14:01.340 --> 00:14:05.320
I had a kind of multiple diagnosis, which

320
00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.020
at the time in the 80s, I don't

321
00:14:08.020 --> 00:14:11.700
think even the educational psychologists really knew what

322
00:14:11.700 --> 00:14:13.620
dyscalculia was.

323
00:14:13.920 --> 00:14:16.240
So, I didn't get a diagnosis until I

324
00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:17.020
was in university.

325
00:14:18.040 --> 00:14:20.500
And it was really, really frustrating.

326
00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:24.460
I never ever saw anyone like me reflected

327
00:14:24.460 --> 00:14:25.720
in a book at all.

328
00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:28.140
And it wasn't until I was an adult

329
00:14:28.140 --> 00:14:30.120
and I was reviewing children's books and I

330
00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.140
was a bookseller that I started to see

331
00:14:33.140 --> 00:14:35.760
books with dyslexic protagonists.

332
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:37.260
Not very many, but a few.

333
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.840
Some were brilliantly crafted and envisioned, like Sally

334
00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:43.140
Gardner's Maggot Moon.

335
00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.360
The main protagonist in that is so wonderful.

336
00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:47.880
That's the first time I was like, oh,

337
00:14:47.920 --> 00:14:48.580
I'm not alone.

338
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:53.180
But I've never seen any characters with dyscalculia

339
00:14:53.180 --> 00:14:55.860
or dyspraxia.

340
00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.820
So, it was important to me to have

341
00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:02.120
a main character that had those, but was

342
00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:03.360
just part of who they are.

343
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.280
They weren't defined or limited by it.

344
00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:08.480
It was just part of their multifaceted personality

345
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:12.660
and to show that actually there are benefits.

346
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.280
And there was certain things that come with

347
00:15:15.280 --> 00:15:19.680
being neurodiverse, which are gifts.

348
00:15:20.620 --> 00:15:26.600
And we deserve to be seen and reflected

349
00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:29.320
back, but without it just being purely about

350
00:15:30.640 --> 00:15:31.840
the neurodiverseness.

351
00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:33.840
So, to me, it was really important to

352
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:34.520
do that.

353
00:15:35.160 --> 00:15:38.180
Thankfully, my publishers thought so too.

354
00:15:38.620 --> 00:15:41.600
And they were also very lovely because they

355
00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:43.600
shared my vision to make it as readable

356
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:44.160
as possible.

357
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:49.820
So, the actual text has been done with

358
00:15:49.820 --> 00:15:54.380
the National Dyslexia Guidelines Association guidelines.

359
00:15:54.740 --> 00:15:56.220
So, we have dyslexia-friendly font.

360
00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:58.540
We have generous spacing.

361
00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:02.820
And also, it's only justified to the left,

362
00:16:03.280 --> 00:16:05.220
which means it's really easy for tracking.

363
00:16:06.040 --> 00:16:11.560
So, it's just really super readable, which we've

364
00:16:11.560 --> 00:16:13.060
had a lot of feedback on that people

365
00:16:13.060 --> 00:16:17.960
are really finding this readability a benefit.

366
00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.680
And actually, I've done a few school events

367
00:16:21.680 --> 00:16:22.760
now where I have to do reading.

368
00:16:23.300 --> 00:16:26.140
I'm so grateful it's readable because it makes

369
00:16:26.140 --> 00:16:27.660
it so much easier to read.

370
00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:30.420
I notice you use bold rather than italics

371
00:16:30.420 --> 00:16:30.780
as well.

372
00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:34.840
That was also the National Dyslexia Association Guidelines.

373
00:16:35.060 --> 00:16:37.300
They think it's easier than the italics.

374
00:16:37.700 --> 00:16:38.440
And I agree.

375
00:16:38.780 --> 00:16:41.660
Italics can be very difficult to read when

376
00:16:41.660 --> 00:16:42.480
you're dyslexic.

377
00:16:42.980 --> 00:16:44.660
I was a bit worried it might seem

378
00:16:44.660 --> 00:16:47.060
a bit shouty, but actually, it's okay when

379
00:16:47.060 --> 00:16:47.720
you read it.

380
00:16:48.880 --> 00:16:53.000
Yeah, I think we can code switch, can't

381
00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:53.200
we?

382
00:16:53.560 --> 00:16:55.700
And so, you get used to it pretty

383
00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:58.840
quickly and you that's what that does, just

384
00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:00.020
in the way we get used to speech

385
00:17:00.020 --> 00:17:01.920
marks or no speech marks, or sometimes you

386
00:17:01.920 --> 00:17:03.300
get a book where it's a dash rather

387
00:17:03.300 --> 00:17:04.920
than a speech mark, and you just go,

388
00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:09.220
okay, that's the rules within this particular book.

389
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:14.240
So, as you say, it's really important to

390
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.940
have a character who has the condition without

391
00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:19.980
it being a book about a dyslexic child

392
00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:20.960
or whatever it is.

393
00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:22.079
That isn't the issue.

394
00:17:22.180 --> 00:17:24.920
The issue is the When you're looking at

395
00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:27.820
fantasy more generally, what would you say were

396
00:17:27.820 --> 00:17:31.300
the writers who deal with people of diverse

397
00:17:31.300 --> 00:17:33.400
conditions best?

398
00:17:33.500 --> 00:17:35.600
You mentioned the Sally Gardner, but is there

399
00:17:35.600 --> 00:17:36.120
others?

400
00:17:36.500 --> 00:17:38.720
I was thinking that what came to my

401
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:40.180
mind as you were talking was, of course,

402
00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:44.640
the Percy Jackson books.

403
00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:48.640
He's dyslexic and he's hardwired for ancient Greece.

404
00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:52.140
Yeah, I love that, actually.

405
00:17:52.340 --> 00:17:54.140
That was because it was such a positive

406
00:17:54.140 --> 00:17:55.280
way of doing it.

407
00:17:56.280 --> 00:17:58.240
You really turned it into a skill.

408
00:17:59.080 --> 00:18:00.200
Yeah, it was brilliant.

409
00:18:01.120 --> 00:18:06.780
And Sally Gardner's Magnet Moon was brilliant because

410
00:18:06.780 --> 00:18:13.460
she is also dyslexic in its own voice.

411
00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:16.160
She got all of the other little things

412
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:20.960
right, like having the same knot in his

413
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.480
school tie that he would have for like

414
00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:25.200
three or four years, like pulling it up

415
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.000
and down because he couldn't tie a tie.

416
00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:32.440
And all the little things that people that

417
00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:35.760
don't live it don't really realise is part

418
00:18:35.760 --> 00:18:37.000
and parcel of it.

419
00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:39.040
A lot of people will say to me,

420
00:18:39.380 --> 00:18:43.200
but grammar isn't an issue with dyslexia because

421
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.020
my grammar is awful, or was when I

422
00:18:46.020 --> 00:18:46.920
first started writing.

423
00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:48.820
And they're right.

424
00:18:49.020 --> 00:18:51.500
Actually, it shouldn't affect grammar.

425
00:18:52.080 --> 00:18:55.120
But if, for instance, you are still on

426
00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:56.860
Biff and Chip books or, in my day,

427
00:18:56.980 --> 00:19:00.360
Peter and Jane books when you're 13, you

428
00:19:00.360 --> 00:19:02.760
don't get the grammar lessons because you are

429
00:19:02.760 --> 00:19:06.240
pulled out of lessons to try and teach

430
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.240
you to read the basics of reading.

431
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:12.820
So, it's not an actual symptom of the

432
00:19:12.820 --> 00:19:16.600
neurodivergeness, but it is an indirect one because

433
00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:20.300
you miss massive amounts of learning.

434
00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:24.200
So, yes, Sally and Gardner was good.

435
00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:25.600
Oh, I'm trying to think of other.

436
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.660
You know, I think it's still an underserved

437
00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:32.700
part of the population.

438
00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.820
And I was trying to think of adult

439
00:19:37.820 --> 00:19:41.140
material, as in YA and adult material.

440
00:19:41.420 --> 00:19:43.560
I can't think of any.

441
00:19:43.840 --> 00:19:45.440
It'd be really interesting to find out if

442
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.420
that concern, which people, when they're thinking about

443
00:19:48.420 --> 00:19:50.260
children, are thinking about learning to read.

444
00:19:50.600 --> 00:19:52.700
So, it might be something you put in.

445
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.480
But what about an adult space captain?

446
00:19:57.900 --> 00:19:59.520
You know, I'd love to see it where

447
00:19:59.520 --> 00:20:01.720
it's just an ordinary thing to mention amongst

448
00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:03.140
all the other things that happen.

449
00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:07.500
And there's a TV show where the main

450
00:20:07.500 --> 00:20:09.260
character is dyslexic.

451
00:20:09.820 --> 00:20:11.620
And that's a murder mystery one.

452
00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:13.240
I think it's the Chelsea Detective.

453
00:20:13.860 --> 00:20:14.000
Oh, okay.

454
00:20:14.100 --> 00:20:14.620
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

455
00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:16.160
The main character's got dyslexia.

456
00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:19.120
And then, oh, obviously, I've not read the

457
00:20:19.120 --> 00:20:21.920
books, but I have watched the TV show

458
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.560
because I lived while the TV show was

459
00:20:24.560 --> 00:20:24.740
on.

460
00:20:24.780 --> 00:20:26.140
So, I don't know how anybody got away

461
00:20:26.140 --> 00:20:28.520
without watching it, which is Jamie Lannister in

462
00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:31.860
Game of Thrones, who is dyslexic and his

463
00:20:31.860 --> 00:20:34.280
father really takes it out on him because

464
00:20:34.280 --> 00:20:37.100
he doesn't understand why he's not good at,

465
00:20:37.320 --> 00:20:38.040
academically.

466
00:20:39.700 --> 00:20:41.700
So, it's a rather dark example, but it

467
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:43.500
is a rather dark example.

468
00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:45.680
But it is the only one I can

469
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.100
come to, that I can think of, which

470
00:20:49.100 --> 00:20:52.200
is, yeah, definitely an adult kind of fantasy

471
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.780
person with dyslexia specifically.

472
00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:55.260
Yeah.

473
00:20:55.760 --> 00:20:55.920
Yeah.

474
00:20:57.140 --> 00:20:59.960
So, what's your plans going forward?

475
00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:03.660
I'm currently writing book two.

476
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:06.460
Well, book two first draft is done.

477
00:21:07.040 --> 00:21:10.740
My edits for book two, very brilliantly timing

478
00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:14.120
wise, came in the day after the launch

479
00:21:14.120 --> 00:21:14.620
party.

480
00:21:15.020 --> 00:21:16.960
So, I've got in at one o'clock

481
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:19.060
in the morning, got up, did a course,

482
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:21.280
a publishing course I'd been put on in

483
00:21:21.280 --> 00:21:24.020
the morning, and then in came the edits,

484
00:21:24.120 --> 00:21:24.580
of course.

485
00:21:24.980 --> 00:21:26.720
So, I'm doing the edits on book two

486
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:28.460
at the moment, which is in the same,

487
00:21:28.860 --> 00:21:30.420
is the sequel to Mammoth Rider.

488
00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.420
So, there'll be more mammoths and a few

489
00:21:33.420 --> 00:21:35.000
surprises that I can't really speak out.

490
00:21:35.040 --> 00:21:36.440
Does it have a title or is it

491
00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:37.080
a working title?

492
00:21:37.100 --> 00:21:38.320
No, no title yet.

493
00:21:38.760 --> 00:21:41.580
I like to call it MR2, which sounds

494
00:21:41.580 --> 00:21:44.920
like a sports car from the early 90s.

495
00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:47.160
Or a COVID jab.

496
00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:48.160
Yeah.

497
00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:50.980
Well, all the best with that.

498
00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:53.220
So, let's have some fun with the idea

499
00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:56.280
of, I guess it's a bit Jurassic Park,

500
00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:56.840
isn't it?

501
00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:02.360
You referenced Jurassic Park in the afterward to

502
00:22:02.360 --> 00:22:02.980
your books.

503
00:22:03.500 --> 00:22:05.040
Was that a big influence on you in

504
00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:08.200
thinking of this sort of, or maybe Jurassic

505
00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:10.560
Park has influenced the people thinking it'd be

506
00:22:10.560 --> 00:22:12.480
great to have a park for mammoths, which

507
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.400
then you found and then thought, oh, well,

508
00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:16.380
if I'm going to write about mammoths, it

509
00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:17.360
could have been that way around.

510
00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:18.500
I don't know.

511
00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:24.180
So, when I was writing it, I was

512
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:29.560
mostly thinking of the science and the race

513
00:22:29.560 --> 00:22:32.680
to clone mammoths.

514
00:22:34.420 --> 00:22:36.960
And the Pliocene Park, which is in Siberia,

515
00:22:37.340 --> 00:22:41.240
where they're already taking extant animals.

516
00:22:41.360 --> 00:22:43.400
Animals exist today that used to be in

517
00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:43.880
the tundra.

518
00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:46.180
They are putting them back in the tundra

519
00:22:46.180 --> 00:22:47.900
to do the same jobs that mammoths would.

520
00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:50.260
And they're having some positive results with that.

521
00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:54.860
But they would like something bigger, because mammoths

522
00:22:54.860 --> 00:22:58.180
can obviously clear that blanket much quicker.

523
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.560
But they can also do something which the

524
00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:04.060
other animals can't, which is they can uproot

525
00:23:04.060 --> 00:23:04.660
trees.

526
00:23:05.060 --> 00:23:06.480
Now, one of the big issues in the

527
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.780
Arctic at the moment is there are more

528
00:23:08.780 --> 00:23:11.120
trees coming north of the taiga, which is

529
00:23:11.120 --> 00:23:16.160
that kind of forest that is the butter

530
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.720
between the Arctic and further south.

531
00:23:19.320 --> 00:23:21.900
And that's because it is warming, temperatures are

532
00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:24.000
warming, so trees are growing further north into

533
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:24.520
the tundra.

534
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:28.820
But as they do that, their roots obviously

535
00:23:28.820 --> 00:23:30.180
are warm because they're living.

536
00:23:30.840 --> 00:23:35.460
And that also melts the permafrost.

537
00:23:35.580 --> 00:23:37.540
So, it's probably the only time you'll hear

538
00:23:37.540 --> 00:23:41.740
take trees out to help with usually it's

539
00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:42.460
plant trees.

540
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:44.160
But when it comes to the Arctic, you

541
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:44.860
want to take them out.

542
00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:47.200
And mammoths could do that.

543
00:23:48.320 --> 00:23:49.980
But I was thinking more of that.

544
00:23:50.060 --> 00:23:52.180
But then when I started to think, how

545
00:23:52.180 --> 00:23:55.600
do you explain these big concepts to children?

546
00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:58.560
I was like, why am I panicking about

547
00:23:58.560 --> 00:23:58.760
it?

548
00:23:58.800 --> 00:24:01.160
Most children have seen Jurassic Park.

549
00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:04.360
It is the same kind of thing.

550
00:24:05.180 --> 00:24:10.620
And then I thought of a fantastic book

551
00:24:10.620 --> 00:24:13.840
from the 70s, which I came to when

552
00:24:13.840 --> 00:24:17.080
I was very young via the 1981 animated

553
00:24:17.080 --> 00:24:21.220
adaptation of the book, which is Mrs. Frisbee

554
00:24:21.220 --> 00:24:21.920
and the Rats of Nîm.

555
00:24:22.520 --> 00:24:27.640
And that obviously is, well, not obviously, if

556
00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:28.700
you've not read it, you won't know.

557
00:24:28.820 --> 00:24:30.340
But for people that have read it or

558
00:24:30.340 --> 00:24:34.360
watched the film, it's about genetically engineered mice,

559
00:24:34.540 --> 00:24:36.720
where the National Institute of Mental Health of

560
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.640
Nîm have taken street rats and they have

561
00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:40.700
changed their genetics.

562
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:43.740
So, their intelligence and their lifespan is more

563
00:24:43.740 --> 00:24:45.040
similar to humans.

564
00:24:45.760 --> 00:24:48.320
The rats have escaped Nîm after them.

565
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:49.900
And all the rats want to do is

566
00:24:49.900 --> 00:24:53.500
live an eco-friendly life in the mountains

567
00:24:53.500 --> 00:24:54.680
away from humans.

568
00:24:55.960 --> 00:25:00.240
So, I think the two books, Mrs. Frisbee

569
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:02.380
and the Rats of Nîm and the book

570
00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:05.460
version of Jurassic Park, I love the films,

571
00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:09.040
but the book is better, really then started

572
00:25:09.040 --> 00:25:10.840
to get me to think how you could

573
00:25:10.840 --> 00:25:11.640
explain it to children.

574
00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:15.700
Although children or adults do not get your

575
00:25:15.700 --> 00:25:16.960
children to read Jurassic Park.

576
00:25:17.120 --> 00:25:17.760
It's an adult's book.

577
00:25:17.840 --> 00:25:18.480
It's very scary.

578
00:25:19.080 --> 00:25:20.360
It's not like the film.

579
00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:21.060
Yeah.

580
00:25:21.340 --> 00:25:24.060
I often refer to something as Jurassic Park

581
00:25:24.060 --> 00:25:24.720
rules.

582
00:25:26.120 --> 00:25:28.460
I've been using that terminology about something I'm

583
00:25:28.460 --> 00:25:29.240
writing at the moment.

584
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:33.020
By what I mean is, don't worry, none

585
00:25:33.020 --> 00:25:34.080
of the children are killed.

586
00:25:34.700 --> 00:25:36.680
It's just adults who need killing who get

587
00:25:36.680 --> 00:25:36.960
killed.

588
00:25:37.340 --> 00:25:39.920
But it sounds like that's a rule only

589
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:40.660
seen in the film.

590
00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:44.100
No, the children do survive in the books.

591
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:46.780
But they are the only ones that survive

592
00:25:46.780 --> 00:25:47.340
in the books.

593
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.320
So, in the books, the people that die

594
00:25:52.320 --> 00:25:54.040
are the ones that survive in the film

595
00:25:54.040 --> 00:25:54.560
and vice versa.

596
00:25:54.820 --> 00:25:55.680
It's really weird.

597
00:25:56.520 --> 00:25:58.040
Books are much better though.

598
00:25:58.820 --> 00:26:00.960
I love the books.

599
00:26:01.280 --> 00:26:04.480
Not maybe as easy to read, but I

600
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:06.200
read them over a very, very long time.

601
00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:07.860
They are really good.

602
00:26:08.520 --> 00:26:10.100
And what I appreciated at the end of

603
00:26:10.100 --> 00:26:11.920
your book, which I think would be really

604
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.580
good for someone, a child who's quite, I

605
00:26:15.580 --> 00:26:16.940
don't like all this fiction stuff.

606
00:26:17.040 --> 00:26:17.580
I like fact.

607
00:26:17.800 --> 00:26:19.740
Because at the end, you're talking about the

608
00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:21.380
factual basis behind the story.

609
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:25.900
And you're also talking about the questions like,

610
00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:27.080
should we do this?

611
00:26:27.380 --> 00:26:29.760
You don't answer the question, you raise the

612
00:26:29.760 --> 00:26:31.620
question and say, well, what do you think,

613
00:26:31.840 --> 00:26:34.060
child reader who's just finished the book?

614
00:26:34.660 --> 00:26:38.120
So, I'm going to make you break your

615
00:26:38.120 --> 00:26:41.920
own careful scientific approach here because I'm going

616
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.560
to ask you to consider reintroducing to an

617
00:26:45.560 --> 00:26:48.180
area of the world of your choice, maybe

618
00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:48.940
your own backyard.

619
00:26:48.940 --> 00:26:53.420
A, imagine we're in all the fantasy worlds,

620
00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:56.940
which fantasy creature would you like to reintroduce

621
00:26:56.940 --> 00:27:00.560
into the world if you could, when you're

622
00:27:00.560 --> 00:27:02.000
a mad scientist white coat?

623
00:27:02.820 --> 00:27:07.180
Well, I really like a dragon.

624
00:27:08.280 --> 00:27:09.880
I love a dragon.

625
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:11.280
I used to collect them when I was

626
00:27:11.280 --> 00:27:11.620
a kid.

627
00:27:11.620 --> 00:27:14.400
So, it would always be a dragon for

628
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:14.680
me.

629
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:20.120
And I think into the atmosphere, and a

630
00:27:20.120 --> 00:27:22.960
massive dragon that he doesn't breathe out fire,

631
00:27:23.460 --> 00:27:25.860
but its breath heals the ozone layer.

632
00:27:26.280 --> 00:27:27.500
So, how about that?

633
00:27:28.280 --> 00:27:31.360
A mammoth, not a mammoth, a dragon that

634
00:27:31.360 --> 00:27:32.520
helps save the planet.

635
00:27:32.900 --> 00:27:33.900
That's what I would do.

636
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:34.580
Yeah.

637
00:27:35.080 --> 00:27:37.840
I also think dragons would be excellent, but

638
00:27:37.840 --> 00:27:41.720
I'm thinking more on the domestic scale.

639
00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:46.120
I probably, if you were growing up roughly

640
00:27:46.120 --> 00:27:47.320
the same time as me, there was a

641
00:27:47.320 --> 00:27:52.560
very lovely animation called Ivor the Engine set

642
00:27:52.560 --> 00:27:54.220
in Wales about a steam engine.

643
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:59.860
It's beautifully illustrated, but because it's in Wales,

644
00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:01.440
of course, they've got dragons, but these dragons

645
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.020
are like little ones who are hatched in

646
00:28:04.020 --> 00:28:06.380
the firebox of the steam engine.

647
00:28:06.840 --> 00:28:07.980
So, I rather like the idea of just

648
00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:08.480
a little one.

649
00:28:08.660 --> 00:28:09.880
I've written a book with a little dragon

650
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:11.220
in it, and I think that's me getting

651
00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:15.040
my Ivor the Engine love out of me

652
00:28:15.040 --> 00:28:15.440
somehow.

653
00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:17.420
Yeah.

654
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:19.840
So, thank you so much, SJ, for joining

655
00:28:19.840 --> 00:28:22.640
us, and all the best with Mammoth 2,

656
00:28:23.600 --> 00:28:24.580
the greater adventure.

657
00:28:25.600 --> 00:28:27.980
And it's so lovely to hear that after

658
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.680
such a long journey, you've managed to get

659
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:34.060
to the point where you've been published, which

660
00:28:34.060 --> 00:28:36.380
I think may encourage many people who listen

661
00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:38.140
to this who are similarly on their long

662
00:28:38.140 --> 00:28:38.460
trek.

663
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:40.360
So, thank you very much.

664
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:42.920
Thank you very much for having me.

665
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:43.980
It's been wonderful.

666
00:28:49.100 --> 00:28:52.860
Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast, brought

667
00:28:52.860 --> 00:28:55.260
to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.

668
00:28:56.860 --> 00:28:59.820
Visit oxfordcentreforfantasy.org to join in the fun.

669
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.420
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670
00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:06.500
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671
00:29:06.500 --> 00:29:07.520
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672
00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:10.840
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673
00:29:10.840 --> 00:29:13.280
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