[Music] Hello and welcome to Mythmakers. Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding, I'm an author and screenwriter and I also run the centre. And I'm joined today with my frequent podcast partner, Jacob Rennaker, who's based over in Seattle. He works in the game making industry, as in board games, Ravensburger, but he is also an expert on all things Tolkien. So Jacob, we are in the Oscar season and I was thinking about the relationship between awards and fantasy films, because it's often said that fantasy is one of those genres which is not rewarded by those who hand out the Oscars. Do you think this bears out when you actually look at the list of films that have been winners? Do you think that thesis is correct? Yeah, I think so. And it's the purpose, the question is who's doing the voting, what's their expectations on watching a film? And those are very specific. And certainly the slant is toward films that are more serious, that are tackling big questions, and especially that have, you know, actors that are tortured in some way, some variety of ways, right? Those are the ones that they're looking for, like the type of performances that they get. So, yeah, so I think it bears out in some sense as a closer that fantasy and fantasy adjacent films get to touching on serious and meaningful subject matter, and actors who have some sort of sense of torturedness in their role, that's where we get some of the fantasy films, directing, acting, happening. But visually it's different, right? The directing and visuals, that's kind of like a separate one, but we're talking about like major films, like Best Picture. Yeah. Best Actors. Yeah, I think we should restrict ourselves to talking about the Acting Awards and the Best Picture Awards, because when you actually dig down, obviously, we don't even need to talk about special effects, because very often they sweep the board. Fantasy films, yeah, yeah. And also I was checking through the animated feature films. I mean, of course, most cartoons are fantasy, just because you can draw all the things, but actually purely fantasy, things like Spirited Away, wonderful films have won the Oscar for Best Animated Feature. Just go and check, there's lots of wonderful Disney products, just really good films. Yeah. So let's put those to one side. What is lacking in the Best Picture winners? And I was thinking this because I went and had a look in the foyer of the Dolby Theatre back in January, and they've listed the Best Picture for each year. There is no smash hit there for the fantasy. There's no Marvel film, for example. And there is a strange choice of those which I would say fall slightly uneasily under fantasy films, with one exception. So The Shape of Water, if you remember that rather odd film, that is obviously a fantasy of sorts, but it's very offbeat, very weird. Birdman, that's a mixture of fantasy imagination and a sort of, though you could say it's within the world of the actor who's in it. So that's what I'm saying, it doesn't fit quite. Last Year's Winner, Everything, Everywhere, All at Once, is a kind of sci-fi high concept. Right. But yeah, I suppose you could say that's fantasy as well. A border on fantasy, yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe when they do have that element in them, it doesn't stop them winning. But with the only absolute mainstream total, yes, that's a fantasy film, is obviously Return of the King, which won the Oscar in 2004, I think it was. And yeah, everybody agrees that's a fantasy film, whereas the others you might describe more as a hybrid of other sorts of genres. But let's flip over to the performances, and there you really do come up against a problem of them not rewarding performances in a fantasy film. Right, yeah, yeah. And that's to be expected, and with these, I think you're right on with the blending of genres makes it more palatable. But if it's a heavily genre piece that's heavy fantasy or sci-fi, or even, to be fair, like you said, an action film, if it's kind of a big-budget blockbuster action film, comedies, Westerns even, well, Westerns more so because I think they can get to more of that serious/meaningful and tortured performances. But a lot of those big-budget mass audience films, those aren't the ones that are being considered here or rewarded. So for the actors, it's the same thing. So it's really interesting what the actors, in this most recent Oscar round, coming up, that Barbie, which is a fantasy film, has nominations for Best Picture and two Supporting Actors and Adapted Screenplay, but not for Best Director or Best Actor. So Margot Robbie does not even get a nomination, even though the film is nominated and the Supporting Actors. It's really fascinating looking at those, the Supporting Actors, Ryan Gosling and Merica Ferreira, as kind of like more tortured. Yes, it is Barbie's story, but if you look at what the characters themselves are having to wrestle with more intensively and what they're in, in that degree of supporting actor, not in the primary actor, it's really interesting on how, yes, how Margot Robbie and the main character for the film would not be nominated, but it's the same film and the same storyline, but the two Supporting Actors from that fantasy film are nominated. So there's a really interesting, I think that that's a good demonstration of what is kind of like Margot Robbie's character is Barbie most of the way through, right? It's kind of her performance is fairly even and level, whereas the other two are characters that are kind of like yanked from their world and you see them wrestling, at least in how they're, it is more intensively because I think perhaps less screen time on them, you can see the wrestle a little bit more. It's more intense than over the entire film, but. They have a better song. Right. Exactly. And the song doesn't, that doesn't hurt, but yeah. So the, so the, the individuals and performances. Yeah. So we have like with Lord of the Rings in particular with as many Academy awards as it did receive, including best picture, best director, best screenplay for now we're trying to King the only actor nomination or reward award that you got was for Ian McKellen just from fellowship of the ring was the only one that was one there. So it's interesting looking at, yeah, the different characters there. And there's, yeah, it's, it's hard to say, but that's just an interesting trend. So did Ian McKellen, sorry, did he win something for it? Or was he just nominated? I don't, I thought they was, I didn't think any of them got an acting award. He didn't, he didn't get an award, but he was, it was a nomination. So he was the only one that was nominated. Didn't win, but that was even the only nomination across all three films was just in McKellen for the, for fellowship of the ring. Oh, I I'd forgotten that. I'm just looking through the list of people, men who won the acting role. I need to pull up the women. Cause I'm having them back in my mind that maybe Michelle, you know, one, one for everything, everywhere, all at once. Yeah. So that's a woman winning, winning a main. If we allow that to be a fantasy, of course, Joachim Phoenix one for being Joachim Phoenix. And that's exactly what you say. It's the tortured. Yeah. And, and the only, and I'd say like, even for like, they're like big budget or an even yeah. Big budget Joker versus dark night. So you have two, the only, I would say, you know, like the two best actor roles in a fan fantasy hype or a fantasy adjacent film, you have eat ledger for the Joker and walk in Phoenix, Phoenix for the Joker, both of which performances are these again, like tortured individuals that are vacillating between two different worlds. And so, but it's, it's, it's, it's really interesting that it's the same character that is winning both of those roles, even though it's different franchises, it's within the same story world of Batman. But that's where you get these, but Batman is never nominated. Or is this does never get this award for, and I don't even think nominated for best actor, whereas the bill. And the more kind of emotionally complicated and tortured, he had to keep going back to that word, but yeah. So that's, that's kind of a anomaly in the best actor wins. Yeah. Cause I was thinking that Harry Potter was didn't, didn't get in the running for any of these. And I was just thinking about the performances, particularly in the later films and in the very last one, which in a way is a war movie. And I do think that Daniel Radcliffe actually acts incredibly well. I mean, he's turned out to be such a smashing actor. You know, he's learned, he learned in front of us all, didn't he? You know? And I think that when he actually goes at the end to offer up his life in a way is incredibly moving and is like some kind of war film sacrifice, but nobody ever said, oh, well, maybe Daniel, after having done seven, how many films was it? Seven or eight films. Maybe he should be given a nomination at least. Nobody, I don't remember that being, because he's a wizard, Harry. Right. Yeah. But somehow you're in a different role. Yeah. And it's interesting. You know, Snape being the sort of. Yeah. See, that one's one that I think would come probably closest to actually happening because of. Everyone loving Alan Rickman and thinking he does excellent things. Right. So if you look at, and then I think to just emphasize this point even more, looking at James Cameron films, right? So James Cameron recognized as, you know, one of the most influential filmmakers of the past three decades. You have for Titanic, he does a show on. You know, a film about a historical event, period piece wins 11, 11 Oscars for Titanic, but, and including two best and best and best actor for that film. But for the, his other films, right. For the alien, the abyss terminator avatar, you only get one acting nomination. That's for Sigourney Weaver. And there, but it's just, even though these films are recognized as being groundbreaking and important and significant visually and then directed the actors in those films that received set praise. We're not Naman. We're not even nominated with the exception of Sigourney Weaver there. So you, you, there is definitely a, is it, I, I wouldn't say I guess bias is an okay word to use, but it's just the, the sensibilities on what they're looking for. I don't know if it's the visual, if they're then, if it's put, the film is put into this visual medium rather than the acting medium, but there are those that break through and, uh, cross over what we just mentioned with the, uh, Joaquin Phoenix and Heath Ledger for Joker, that even though those were, but, but, but, but again, both of those films weren't high fantasy. Uh, those were very grounded approaches to the superhero genre. They're very, very grounded with, I don't even think with, especially with, with Joker, that one being kind of devoid of any sort of, you know, technology, any sort of kind of superheroism. It was just kind of more of a character study. Um, whereas the Heath Ledger was set within a clearly superhero genre, but it was a grounded Christopher Nolan's very grounded approach to, uh, storytelling and the superhero genre as opposed to Marvel films, which is a different beast entirely. Yeah. I mean, looking, I, I, we obviously need to look at other award to I'm looking at the Oscars here, but looking at the, um, acting nods that go very, very often, more often than not, it's for somebody who's playing somebody from real life. So you can tell how good they are at being that person. So Brendan Fraser was playing that guy, the, uh, you know, with the weight issue. Will Smith the year before that was the tennis coach, King Richard, I think it is, isn't it? That one. Rami Malek, Bohemian Rhapsody, obviously, Eddy Mercury, Gary Oldman, Darkest Hour, that's Winston Churchill, Eddie Redmayne, that's Stephen Hawking. I can go on. Lincoln, Daniel Day-Lewis, Colin Firth playing the King and so on. So it does seem as though that's an easier, it's very hard to judge fantasy performances when you don't know what they're based on. Maybe that's part of it that we can tell that our fellow actors have done a really good job because we know what they're trying to get at. Maybe it's just easier. You feel more secure in saying, "Oh, let's vote for Colin Firth than let's vote for a wizard." I don't know. That might be part of it. But anyway, let's be different from the sort of general Oscar lineup and let's think about which fantasy performances that have been neglected would we nominate. You can go back as far as you like, but who were the ones who actually, when you think about it in the long view, which we now have, you think actually that really deserved a nod at the time and nobody noticed? Didn't get it. Yeah, that's a good question. So I think again, going probably the farthest back would be Seventh Seal. Okay. Right. So in 1957. Right. So yeah. So that's one. So this incredibly filmed, this incredibly acted and it didn't get any at the time, no Oscar nominations whatsoever. So that's one that's kind of people have returned to time and again for being an incredibly influential piece of cinematography and storytelling and acting. So that's one going again, way, way back. I know we didn't have acting nominations from Wizard of Oz, Judy Garland, anyone else supporting there. Right. So that was one that you didn't have anything there. I am happy that we're on the same time, you know, not too terribly long way. Mary Poppins, Julie Andrews won best actress for that. So we did have a female in a fantasy film leading there in 64, but yeah, yeah. So those are some of the older generation that's kind of coming up more recently in terms of the film and acting. I need to, I need to stick one in before we get too long. Yeah. I think actually in retrospect, Harrison Ford in the very first Star Wars as a best supporting actor, because he totally revolution, you know, that he grounded that film. Everybody else is playing, you know, heroic roles with great stakes and being all very noble. And he's there as the hustler, the guy who has kind of made it feel real. Because you could understand his motives. He wasn't being powered until of course he comes through, you know, that's his, his arc, his arc is very pleasing. So there's all sorts of things about that performance, which I think really set up the whole Star Wars thing right from the start. So I'd give him a best supporting actor nod, if not the prize, cause I don't know what else was around that year, but it'd been nice to see that recognized. And you do have Alec Guinness as Ben Kenobi as there, um, that actually gets a nomination for support, best supporting actor for Star Wars. Oh, does he? Oh, excellent. Yeah. To get the nomination. So then you're, so, and again, that part, so that, that character, right. So like Han Solo as being kind of like an archetypal character that brought so much to that role and pivotal in that role, I think being as successful and appealing to as many people did, but, but Obi-Wan Kenobi, again, this character who's torn between trying to be, you know, a hermit or, you know, a hermit, uh, removing himself from the larger stage of intergalactic interplanetary conflict, but then it's forced to come out of that and then ultimately sacrifices his own life. Um, so that, that, that range of performance and, you know, the caliber of actor that he was, um, and he had class. Yeah. Right. Right. So, so he's doing, he's approaching that film with those sensibilities and not seeing it as necessarily like a genre piece. Um, but that he's bringing the gravitas of a Shakespearean actor, which is what Ian McKellen did for a Gandalf. Um, likewise, right. And Patrick Stewart does that for the ones he's in as well. Exactly. Exactly. So I think that's what, yeah. So, so there, so I think, so I'm glad that justice was done to at least Obi-Wan Kenobi, but I would love to see that. Thank you for, cause I hadn't remembered that. So, okay. Let's go a bit more, um, up to date. I mean, the world wasn't ready for it, but in retrospect, Gollum, Andy slash Andy Serkis should have got best supporting actor. Absolutely. Absolutely. Return of the King or two towers. I'm not, I'm not fast to which one they pick probably two towers actually, cause it's more, more screen time. Um, and wouldn't it have been fun to see Andy Serkis go up with the like lead animator, uh, and accept the award in the voice of Gollum. I mean, it just should have happened. Right. Yeah. Or the tuxedo with little dots on it, uh, motion capture docs on the tuxedo itself. Yeah. Um, no, that would, that I think, yeah, absolutely. And that's one that I think now there's more openness to that actually being considered acting. And that's what, if you read the book that we actually referenced in another episode on New Zealand, there's a book that, uh, the, um, anything you can imagine, uh, Peter Jackson, the making of middle earth by, uh, Ian Nathan talks about that and the complexities of dealing with an actor being seen from the Academy and people evaluating, is this a cartoon? How are you evaluating this? Because it's not the person themselves on screen, but it's a motion capture of the person. So there's a whole kind of unexplored area between what is a performance and what's considered eligible to be considered for an award in a performance. So I absolutely agreed there. Um, I would highlight just a little bit before that, um, say groundhog day with bill Murray, 1993. So this is a, take my fantasy film, a time loop. One of the first like, yeah, fantastic. Yeah. Right. And he is an actor, but again, because of the comedy, uh, kind of a situational high concept situational comedy, the high concept might fly, but because of the comedy that almost like removes the consideration because it's comedic, but the arc that he goes through in that film, um, as a character and the, you know, kind of like the philosophical turn that he makes, uh, is, is fantastic. Um, I appreciate that, but other ones, I think one, again, like more, more recently, um, uh, a monster calls. Did you ever see that one? So 2016, uh, monster calls film adaptation of the book. Um, it's a Chivalry and Patrick Ness collaborating because she wouldn't have died. Exactly. Yeah. So that one, that, that one is, I, I saw it in the theater and was actually able to see it. It kind of is an advanced screening of that one. And cause I love the book so much. And it's one of the books that I give to people is a monster calls most frequently that I gift to other people, um, because the combination of the written word and the art, um, that's in there, um, uh, with, uh, Jim Kay, um, who does the art, who does the art for the, uh, illustrated, uh, Harry Potter, uh, edition, uh, come out. So, you know, monster calls. So just like the powerful interplay between the word, um, and art, but so what they did there story-wise incredibly moving story, um, but translating that into film, um, uh, Patrick Ness did the screenplay for that as well. And so it captures the same sensibilities and as an adaptation into a different medium, he adds something visually and character wise that you don't have in the books that really layered the performance, uh, and the story itself and made it kind of a different creature. Um, but like the performances there, uh, Felicity Jones, an incredible performance as a young mother dying of cancer, uh, and the, the, um, her child, um, is I can't remember the name of the actor, but he just gave a stunning performance. And I don't know what the youngest actor that's been nominated for, uh, a, a, one of these awards are, but we have had some, you know, instances, uh, Oh, the one in the piano was very young. Wasn't she? Um, yes, yes, yes, yes. But it's, it's, it's a rarity, but you have some, and especially now today, child actors are so good, uh, that, yeah, so that's the one that I would like to see. Um, uh, Patrick or a Conor O'Malley, the character's name and monster calls the child. Um, he was phenomenal. And so it's either Felicity Jones or, uh, or him and a monster called would be wonderful. And we're even being considered for best picture, just visual J uh, uh, boy, who did, who actually, so he was the director, uh, who also directed the first two episodes of rings of power. Oh, okay. So that kind of like artistic sensibility that he brought to that, um, cinematically is what's on, on display there and the monster call. So yeah, I did not know that connection. So, um, thank you. That taught me something there. So, um, I was wondering going on your, it has to be a torture performance. I did wonder about the film Logan because it had Patrick's and, um, yeah. And in it, plus also that young actress, Daphne, she's got an unusual name, uh, keen. Is that her name? Anyway. Um, she's, so the three of them all give very nuanced, proper acting, proper acting performances. And I don't, yeah, I think that was one that could have got the nod at some point. Yeah. Yeah. With Hugh and Hugh, Hugh Jackman's performance in that is, and, and even Patrick Stewart for supporting when he's there on the film, both of those. Yeah. Or again, like that's another one of these superhero genre, but I would put that in the same class as a Joker. Yeah. Joaquin Phoenix. Right. That's really, that's, that's very grounded, um, and pretty and just more of a character study than an emphasis on the fantastical world that these characters are in. It really kind of zeroes in on the character, um, and their internal world, uh, and internal journey. So just to round this up, um, I'm going to allow you two picks for films that you think should have been fantasy films from previous eras that should have been in, in receipt of the best picture for their year, looking at it in retrospect. Yeah. Um, uh, I wouldn't necessarily agree if I, if I had to say, yeah, for that, I would, I didn't think green night most recently, a couple of years ago, it's another one that was really good. Oh yeah. The one that, uh, the Sagaway in retelling. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so that one, the performance there. Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that was, that was truly excellent. So if we're looking at, especially, I think like, yeah, more recent films and performances I would have, yeah, I would as wild didn't happen and might never happen, but I would, yeah, go with green, green night, that Battalion Green Knight and, uh, the act of like Conor O'Malley in a monster calls. Yeah. So I would go a little bit further back. I was thinking of between ET and closed encounters that both of those are actually quite artistic films when you actually look at them now, maybe ET because, um, it also had the popularity thing behind it, but it said some very profound things and also the performances of the children again, were wonderful in that. Yes. Incredible. I watched it as a child, so I, I wasn't analyzing it then, but looking at it now it's, it hasn't aged particularly badly at all. It's still got a lot of, um, legs to it, that one. Um, so yeah, that would have, that would have pleased me if that had won a best picture. And I think more recently, well, I don't know, they should give, um, going back to my Harry Potter point, it'd be quite nice if they gave a, well done having made all those films award because they were very influential films. I don't know that all of them, each one was particularly perfect, but perhaps the one that should have won one was the third one. Um, the, uh, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, because it upped the game, the clever use of the time Turner, the sensibility of it, the Gary Oldman, he doesn't think his performance, that was great, but I think it was. Um, and it also, the children, young people by that stage were getting into their stride as actors. Right. So I actually thought that was a pretty good film. And the director. Yeah. When then that one in particular, it sounds like that's Alfonso Cuaron, uh, who did, who directed that one, uh, who has gone on to direct a number of other, like even, um, uh, yes, Oscar winning best pictures. So the filmmaker that they brought on tonally, it's different, right. Um, from, uh, Chris Columbus, uh, right. From, um, from the earlier, from the first two films, it's very tonally very distinct and you know what he was getting there, but Alfonso Cuaron brought a different sensibility to that. And so it is a little, and granted, like in the story, it does kind of move a little bit dark as you're following the kids. And it makes sense where you're starting out with having this director and this kind of tone and feel for the film, because there are kids and they're entering into this one world that's slowly becoming complicated, but then now you're really fully moving into, um, more significant plot complications as well as age wise, these kids are aging up and teenagers, the sort of complicated, uh, emotions that they're learning to have to navigate for the first time, uh, is I think an excellent pairing of director that has kind of a different vision and the acting, uh, performances themselves. So I absolutely agree there. I mean, I kind of also wanted to say Iron Man as well, but anyway, I've gone with, um, I've gone with Harry Potter. Why not? You know, um, but there is an argument to be made for the first Iron Man, which I think is a really good film. Anyway, I mean, we could go on, couldn't we? We better draw a line there. And if you're listening and you think we've missed a really obvious thing that we should have said, and we haven't even mentioned the Hunger Games or any of those other dystopian spin-offs, we ran out of time. Um, let us know, but in our fantasy tip, Jacob, which of these films would you send people scurrying off to see if they haven't seen it yet? I would, I mean, I've talked a lot about a monster calls. I would, I would absolutely recommend that film for an African and especially for this audience, for a fantasy, uh, creatives, uh, and fans, um, that the film itself, uh, the visuals are stunning. You have different, um, Liam Neeson does the voice of, uh, of the monster. Uh, and so I'm a big fan of Liam Neeson's voice. If you liked Aslan's voice and Narnia films, it's the same, same voice. Uh, if you like Jedi masters, it's the same voice. Um, but just like, so the, the CGI is, is great. So just like the sensibilities are brought there, but then you also have, it's a story about telling stories and the stories we tell ourselves and how stories unexpected, how stories aren't, might not be what they seem and how they can help pull us through difficult times. And so they have within the film, there's a few short animated sequences. Um, the premise of, you know, this is the story is monster comes to this child who's struggling with a parent, um, who has cancer and he tells him three stories, uh, and these three stories, um, powerful in themselves and interesting and playing with expectations. Um, but in the film adaptation, the, these are, these stories are presented as animated sequences that have these, you know, beautiful, colorful, um, not too dissimilar from the, um, uh, the deathly hallows animated, you know, kind of segment in, uh, right. Yeah. So this isn't quite shadow puppetry. It's animated, but not like a fully, you know, rendered, um, it's kind of softer, kind of, you know, um, impressionist, uh, kind of approach to that, but storytelling of two different types within the same story about the stories we tell and how they impact us and can help us through the most difficult, uh, times that we have in our life. That would be my absolute recommendation. If you haven't seen a monster calls, um, uh, 2016, um, please go see it, do yourself a favor and go see that and bring a box of tissues, probably with, uh, it's not a light popcorn fare. Uh, it's, it's definitely one that, that will, that will stick with you. Yeah. So I might go just to sort of contrast with that. I might go, um, into like sci-fi cause we haven't met. We haven't really spent much time. I know people say, um, 2001 space, Odyssey is, is like the most amazing film. I never actually particularly liked that film. So I'm not going to recommend it. I think you have to watch it if you're a film buff, buff, just to say you've watched it, but actually I'm sort of torn between two, um, three. So I'm going Star Trek cause Star Trek occasionally produces something really, really interesting. So Star Trek first contact, um, is one of the Patrick Stewart ones has some really interesting, questions in it about artificial intelligence and the nature of feeling and the nature of being human. Uh, it's well acted a lot of Patrick Stewart, who I think is a great actor, but a great supporting cast. So that's my favorite of the Star Trek films until the reboot. Cause the other one I was going to say is Star Trek one reboot with Chris Pine. And I think that's a really interesting one. The reboot with Chris Pine is great. Yeah. Such a good film about how to do interesting science fiction, keeping the focus on relationships and not spectacle. Yeah. Um, I kind of get a bit lost sometimes in the Star Wars films when they go in for lots of starscapes. I prefer the Star Trek relationship emphasis, but it's always got to be when I come down to it, it's always got to be galaxy quest. Yes. To bring Alan Rickman back into it. Which is I've said it before. I'll keep on saying it until the whole world has watched galaxy quest and laughed because that is such, it's got scorny weaver. It's got Alan Rickman. Oscar nominee. Yeah. It's just such a fabulous, um, well-constructed hilarious film. And it's the one which I, I won't tire of rewatching and it's, it is obviously a fantasy film, but it also has fun of fan. It makes fun of fantasy. So yeah, it's, it's self, it's certainly self-aware. Yeah. So if ever you want to cheer yourself up and think, Oh, I fancy something, which is funny, but also fantasy. That is a good one to go for. Right. Well, Jacob, thank you very much for talking this through with me and good luck to everybody at the Oscars. Thanks for listening to Mythmakers Podcast brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. Visit OxfordCentreForFantasy.org to join in the fun. Find out about our online courses, in-person stays in Oxford, plus visit our shop for great gifts. Tell a friend and subscribe wherever you find your favourite podcasts worldwide.