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Rain Phoenix: Foreign. Hello and welcome to LaunchLeft Podcast.

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I'm your host, Rain Phoenix. Today's very special

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guests are Ben Gibbard. Yes. Of Postal Service

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and Death Cab for Cutie, who will be launching

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Casey Dinell. Don't forget, rate and subscribe.

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Follow us on all socials onchleft.

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Ben Gibbard: Hey, how's it going?

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Rain Phoenix: Hi, Ben.

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Ben Gibbard: Nice to meet you.

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Rain Phoenix: It's really nice to meet you too. Welcome to

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LaunchLeft Podcast.

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Ben Gibbard: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

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Rain Phoenix: Absolutely. Wow. Ben Gibbard, Postal Service,

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Death Cab for Cutie. Did you ever think that you

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were going to be this popular, like in the world

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of music when you started? I would love to just

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hear how that felt, that trajectory. Was that

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something that you came in going like, I'm going

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to be a very popular musical artist, or did it

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fall into place in a really interesting way?

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Ben Gibbard: Well, I would add the caveat that popular is a

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very relative term.

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Casey Dienel: True.

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Ben Gibbard: But I must say that all of my idols, the people

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that I wanted to be like, the people I admired

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the most when I was coming up, were kind of

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coming out of a punk rock and independent music

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circles, mostly in the late 80s and early 90s.

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And at the time, success could be defined as, I

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might be able to do this for a few years while

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the band is active, and after that I'll have to

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go to grad school and move on with my life doing

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something normal. Because the kind of music that

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I was interested in playing and the kind of music

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that I was making and we were making was not

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music that was popular even to the extent where

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one could make a viable living at it. So I like

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to tell this story that the first time we played

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a Death Cab played a sold out show at the

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Crocodile Cafe here in Seattle, which is this

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small venue.

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Rain Phoenix: Yeah, I know it will.

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Ben Gibbard: Okay. Yeah. The old Crocodile Cafe on first,

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second and Blanchard. And we sold that out with

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the Wall in which, for those who might be old

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enough to remember, was about 300 tickets. And we

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came off stages in December of 98, and I came off

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stage and I was just overwhelmed with emotion. I

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was crying and. Because I just never thought I'd

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ever get a chance to do this. So that was the

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moment at which I felt like this was real. And

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not to. Not to kind of play the too humble a

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card, but it definitely felt like that was the

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moment where it felt as if everything I'd wanted

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to accomplish had been accomplished. And

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everything since that point has kind of just been

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gravy. So. And it's been a very surreal, surreal

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27 year career. I feel now I can, I can, I can

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call it a career. I, I, it took me a long time to

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even use the word career without feeling like I

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was, it was an enormous exercise in hubris. Yeah.

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Rain Phoenix: Thinking back to that era, I'm also from the,

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from the 90s as I like to say. And it was so

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different, right. Like the way that an artist

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even approached the idea of the industry or being

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in a band, you know, and there was so much back

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then about not selling out and being in that sort

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of like space where you do it just for the love

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of it and if it works, it works. And that kind of

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mentality which has changed so drastically since

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then to where it's almost, you know, the opposite

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now, where the best case scenario is even if you

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have those sensibilities, you kind of, if you're

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going to quote, unquote, make it or not have to

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go to grad school to support yourself, you need

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to kind of sell out like that. Everything is

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corporatized now. Like it was the last stand of

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we don't want corporations to rule art. Right.

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And then we kind of lost that battle is how I see

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it. And so now just that mindset was so different

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is what I'm getting at back then to what it is

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now. But through all of it I'm always most

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impressed and moved by those artists like

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yourself who during that time did do it for their

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own passionate reasons, which was just I want to

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make music, I want to do something and if it

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works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. And

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then end up winning at the at, you know what I

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mean? All the way till now to where you're able

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to be comfortable, to where you're able to have a

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career. That legacy piece through the 90s and

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then it kind of stays, I'm not being very

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eloquent, but the legacy of like a 90s band that

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was late 90s, early aughts band that did well

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means that now in, you know, 2000s there's sort

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of so many opportunities to continue the story

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and to tour and do reunion tours and that kind of

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thing. So it was a really sweet spot that I think

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a nice handful of artists were able to find an

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actual living in that spot and you were one of

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them. And it's impressive because like you said,

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now you can really say like, yeah, I guess this

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is a career, you know, this supports me.

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Ben Gibbard: I will kind of add to your point or bring in a

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piece of it that maybe Some listeners are not

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aware of, or maybe. Maybe they're too young to

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know, or they just don't. They don't remember.

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But, you know, in the 90s, a lot of the artists

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that we're probably thinking of right now who

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were artists of great integrity but were also

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very successful and that didn't, quote, unquote,

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sell out, had had the benefit of selling

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sometimes tens of millions of albums. And that is

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a part. That is a part of the economic picture of

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being a recording artist for a band in 2025 that

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simply does not exist.

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Rain Phoenix: Exactly.

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Ben Gibbard: So it's not to say that, you know, I'm sure some

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of my compatriots from who were maybe a

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generation before me probably have some strong

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feelings about this, but, you know, it. It is

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incredibly difficult to carve out a living as a

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band or performer starting today. And I. We have

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the benefit of being one of the last of one of

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the last generations of bands or artists that

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were able to benefit from actual album sales. I

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mean, the album sales were declining in the early

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aughts into the middle odds, but they still

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existed. And, you know, we don't have to get into

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a rugged accounting of how Spotify or Apple music

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work, but just, you know, it's not great. It's

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not. It's not great. And it's certainly not great

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unless if you're not Post Malone or Taylor Swift

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or something like that. So, yeah, I mean, I do. I

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never, as I said earlier, I never would have

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thought that we would be in this position all

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these years later. But I think it's just kind of

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a testament to the power of music in general.

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It's not necessarily. I'd like to think music

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we're making has something to do with it, but,

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you know, music is this incredible marker of time

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in people's lives and brings you back to places

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in your life that were, you know, maybe, you

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know, when you were young or maybe or you were

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happy or they're tied to very sad moments of your

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life. You listen to music to get through

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difficult times. And the older I get and, you

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know, as I've seen the audiences, some people

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continue to come and also change and see younger

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people or people that I hadn't seen in the crowd

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per se before. You know, I just consider myself

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really fortunate to be a part of this kind of

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this river. I like to think of it as like a river

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of music that's been flowing since the dawn of

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human history. And. And I get to be this. I get

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to hop in the river. Kind of downstream and float

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in it for a while?

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Rain Phoenix: Yes. Did you ever feel that some of the. Your

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more, for lack of a better word, popular songs

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would have such an emotive effect on people that,

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you know, when you were writing. Maybe. Let me

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rephrase that. So when you write songs, do you

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have this moment in songwriting where you just

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kind of know that song is done and it did? Like,

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does it move you as much as you hope it will move

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others when you kind of like get to that place

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with a song? Like, what is your process around

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songwriting and knowing when it's done and

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whether. Do you have an opinion on whether an

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audience will connect to it at that time or is it

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very personal to you?

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Ben Gibbard: It's certainly more the latter. It's far more

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personal. And I write a lot. I like to say that I

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write more to get less back the older I get. Um,

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and I, I've never written anything and thought

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this is going to have a, an impact on people. I.

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That seems that like that would be an incredibly

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self centered way to think about one's own work.

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To make something and then immediately envision

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it in the world, quote, unquote, helping people

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or something. It's just kind of a cringy idea

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that if somebody would have that thought to me at

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least. But you know, I, I've. I've been doing

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this long enough and written enough songs to have

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thought that certain songs I had written were

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going to. People were going to like them more

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than maybe they did and vice versa. So there are

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some songs I've written, I've thought, wow, I'm

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really proud of that song. I think people are

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really going to like it and then no one ever

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requests it. So I don't think I'm really in the

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best position to. You know, let's put it this

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way. It's. You know, I guess this applies. I

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would across the entertainment industry, you

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know, if, if people could pick hit movies, there

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would only be hit movies. If people could write

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hit songs, had the ability to just recall that

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there would be nothing but hit songs, there would

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be nothing but hit TV shows. And I think having

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something that resonates with people, whether or

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not you want to call it a hit or whatever, is

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oftentimes a very organic moment. It's very

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difficult to manufacture that kind of thing

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across any industry. Right. And that's why the,

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the person who discovered Fill in the blank pop

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star 20 years ago still has a job, you know,

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because they, they fell into it once. And there

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are people who continue Throwing money at them,

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thinking they're going to do it again. Right. Or,

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or music or a film executive who's been at the

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helm for years and hasn't had a hit forever. But

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they. There's just thought that, well, he

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discovered so and so or he made this film, so

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he's probably going to do it again. Or she for

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that matter. So yeah, I just kind of, I like to

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write and write and write and I kind of, I feel

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certainly with every record that we're making,

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certain themes start to continue to bubble up

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within the context of a writing a group of songs.

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And I just try to make sure that I'm saying what

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I'm trying to say is clearly and in the best

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language possible. And usually that takes a lot

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of songs to find those 10 or 11 songs that make

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the record.

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Rain Phoenix: Do you have, or did you have formal training as a

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kid or did it just kind of. Was it something you

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had interest in and started doing obsessively

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music?

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Ben Gibbard: Well, my parents had this way of tricking me into

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doing things I didn't want to do as a carrot,

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dangling a carrot for the things that I wanted to

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do. So a perfect example would be I, me and a

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couple of my friends went to go see the Karate

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Kid when it came out in theaters and we found

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ourselves just like kicking the shit out of each

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other in the parking lot wanting to take karate

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lessons. And my parents were like, well, you

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know, you really need to be nimble to take

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karate. So maybe we'll have you take ballet

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lessons first and if you do ballet for two years,

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we'll let you take karate lessons. This is a

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pretty brilliant tactic because they were able to

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recognize that my interest in karate was fleeting

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and that there was no way I was going to put

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myself through two years of ballet lessons to get

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to karate. By that point I would have moved on,

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which I did. And they did a similar thing with me

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with piano where they. I wanted to learn how to

249
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play guitar. This was. I was 10 or whatever and

250
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they had. I don't know what the length of time I

251
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had to take piano lessons was, but it was.

252
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Certainly felt like ages for a 10 year old. So I

253
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had three or four years of piano lessons. And I

254
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look back on that with a lot of gratitude that

255
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they made me do that because there is no better

256
00:13:02.310 --> 00:13:03.990
instrument, as far as I'm concerned for

257
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understanding the scale of harmony and melody and

258
00:13:06.910 --> 00:13:09.030
how chords work and everything than piano.

259
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Because when I started teaching myself how to

260
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play guitar, I understood what an E7 chord was,

261
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or whatever. I understood the basic theory of how

262
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this all worked together. And I took a couple

263
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guitar lessons from, or a season of guitar

264
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lessons, I should say, from a neighbor in my

265
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hometown of Bremerton, Washington. Gentleman

266
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named Patrick Santos, who lived up the street

267
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gave me guitar lessons. But after that I, I

268
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discovered punk rock and underground music. And

269
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I, I realized that these lessons were somewhat

270
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unnecessary to make music. So I, I, I, I don't

271
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have much formal training. In fact, I was just on

272
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a zoom earlier today about a project that I'm,

273
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I'm going to be doing where I had to let

274
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everybody know that I do not know how to

275
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transcribe music nor write it. So if, if they

276
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need any of the work, you know, chart, they need

277
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charts of the work, they're going to have to hire

278
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someone else to do it.

279
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Casey Dienel: Right.

280
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Rain Phoenix: What was your first experience of music? That

281
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kind of mind, that was a mind opening for you.

282
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That music was something you might want to work

283
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in or make yourself. Do you have that moment,

284
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like how it found you?

285
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Ben Gibbard: I grew up in a household where there were always

286
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records on, there were always LPs on in the

287
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living room, and my dad always had records on. I,

288
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my earliest memories are listening to the Beatles

289
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and the Beach Boys, but also AC DC and Devo. And

290
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we, my, my dad was in the military. We lived in

291
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Japan for a period of time. So we had all these

292
00:14:50.170 --> 00:14:52.050
Japanese pop records that he had collected over

293
00:14:52.050 --> 00:14:55.340
there as well. So a pretty, you know, for a

294
00:14:55.340 --> 00:15:00.460
military guy, a pretty diverse set of music. He

295
00:15:00.460 --> 00:15:04.900
was in the Navy, I think I mentioned. And so I

296
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would hear these records on the house and they

297
00:15:06.900 --> 00:15:09.660
just kind of felt like alchemy. I didn't have any

298
00:15:09.660 --> 00:15:14.420
sense of how the music was made, how people made

299
00:15:14.420 --> 00:15:18.500
it. And then I must have been, I don't know,

300
00:15:18.500 --> 00:15:21.910
seven, eight years old. And my dad had this kind

301
00:15:21.910 --> 00:15:24.710
of raggedy acoustic guitar up against the hearth

302
00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:27.110
and he would sometimes pick it up and play

303
00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:29.470
Beatles songs in the living room for my mom or

304
00:15:29.470 --> 00:15:33.870
whoever was around. And it's maybe a little bit

305
00:15:33.870 --> 00:15:36.549
trite to say it, but I had not connected at that

306
00:15:36.549 --> 00:15:38.990
point that the songs that were coming out of the

307
00:15:38.990 --> 00:15:43.230
speakers could just be played by a person with an

308
00:15:43.230 --> 00:15:45.430
instrument, if that makes sense. It just didn't

309
00:15:45.430 --> 00:15:47.030
make, it didn't make sense. I was like, wait a

310
00:15:47.030 --> 00:15:49.620
second. We just listened to, to here, there and

311
00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:51.860
everywhere from the Beatles, and now it's, my dad

312
00:15:51.860 --> 00:15:55.180
is singing and playing it on guitar. So I think

313
00:15:56.220 --> 00:15:59.820
the earliest light bulb moments were those type

314
00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:05.260
of moments. And later on as I became a junior

315
00:16:05.260 --> 00:16:10.140
high and teenage kid and I started to go to shows

316
00:16:10.140 --> 00:16:15.770
and see people playing music, you know, mostly

317
00:16:15.770 --> 00:16:18.410
like punk rock and stuff like that, it. There was

318
00:16:18.410 --> 00:16:20.290
another light bulb that went on that like, oh, I

319
00:16:20.290 --> 00:16:22.850
can do that. I don't need to be. I don't need to

320
00:16:22.850 --> 00:16:25.290
be in Winger to play. You know, I don't have to

321
00:16:25.290 --> 00:16:26.690
be in a band that sounds like Winger or something

322
00:16:26.690 --> 00:16:28.850
like that. You know, playing ripping solos and

323
00:16:29.170 --> 00:16:33.490
you know, you know, like wild hair and stuff like

324
00:16:33.490 --> 00:16:35.930
that. You can just pull an amp up on stage and

325
00:16:35.930 --> 00:16:39.090
play three chords and write a song. So there are

326
00:16:39.090 --> 00:16:40.330
all these, there are these moments along the way

327
00:16:40.330 --> 00:16:41.650
that are different versions of that.

328
00:16:41.910 --> 00:16:42.190
Rain Phoenix: Yeah.

329
00:16:42.190 --> 00:16:49.110
Ben Gibbard: Revelatory sense of ownership and that you can do

330
00:16:49.110 --> 00:16:52.190
something yourself. You don't have to. You can be

331
00:16:52.190 --> 00:16:54.390
more than just a connoisseur or a listener. You

332
00:16:54.390 --> 00:16:56.390
can be a participant in making this stuff.

333
00:16:56.950 --> 00:17:00.550
Rain Phoenix: What would you say is your favorite kind of music

334
00:17:01.110 --> 00:17:03.510
in terms of how you make it?

335
00:17:04.070 --> 00:17:06.190
Ben Gibbard: At the end of the day, I just like being in this

336
00:17:06.190 --> 00:17:14.040
room writing songs. I mean, to me it's. I'm. I'm

337
00:17:14.040 --> 00:17:16.960
still chasing that feeling of sitting in a room

338
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:20.960
with an instrument and have. And having had just

339
00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:23.400
completed something that I'm proud of and that

340
00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.560
I'm excited about. And that just, it justifies my

341
00:17:27.560 --> 00:17:30.840
day, my week, my month, whatever. And I'm always

342
00:17:30.840 --> 00:17:34.400
just chasing that. And I like to think of, you

343
00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:37.240
know, this might be kind of a strange analogy,

344
00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.600
but at the end of the movie Casino, you know,

345
00:17:40.600 --> 00:17:42.480
spoiler alert. It's the movie came out, you know,

346
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.000
35 years ago, but, you know, at the end of the

347
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:46.680
movie, Robert De Niro's character is just sitting

348
00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:48.480
in this room with a bunch of kind of gambling

349
00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.560
ticker tapes and TVs going and stuff like that

350
00:17:50.560 --> 00:17:52.040
after this whole adventure, this three hour

351
00:17:52.040 --> 00:17:54.120
movie. And he says something like, and at the end

352
00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:55.440
of the day, I could still pick winners. I can

353
00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:02.040
still do this. And at the end of my day, that's,

354
00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:04.840
that's kind of. I want. After all the adventures

355
00:18:04.840 --> 00:18:06.760
and things that I've had in my life through music

356
00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:10.080
and whatever else, that's the thing that gets me

357
00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:12.960
up in the morning, is doing this simple thing of

358
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.200
picking up an instrument and wondering what's

359
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:19.280
going to come out of it. And it's a constant

360
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:27.840
journey of self discovery. And at 49, I still

361
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:31.600
find places my hand goes on the guitar, on the

362
00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:35.440
piano, or words coming out of my mouth, whatever

363
00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:37.520
melodies, whatever that. Oh, I hadn't. That's

364
00:18:37.520 --> 00:18:40.120
kind of Cool. I like that. You know, there's not

365
00:18:40.120 --> 00:18:42.040
that many notes in the western scale. I've used

366
00:18:42.040 --> 00:18:48.360
them all. But it is, I think, at the end of the

367
00:18:48.360 --> 00:18:55.970
day, I'm. I, I'm still fascinated with that sense

368
00:18:55.970 --> 00:18:59.490
of discovery, of finding a collection of notes or

369
00:18:59.490 --> 00:19:03.570
chords that kind of perk my ears a bit and make

370
00:19:03.570 --> 00:19:05.050
me want to go further.

371
00:19:05.850 --> 00:19:10.090
Rain Phoenix: That's such a wonderful answer because, yeah,

372
00:19:10.570 --> 00:19:14.890
it's clear to me that with the breadth and scope

373
00:19:14.890 --> 00:19:19.810
of your catalog, that you must really just enjoy

374
00:19:19.810 --> 00:19:22.770
writing songs because you've written a lot of

375
00:19:22.770 --> 00:19:23.050
them.

376
00:19:23.610 --> 00:19:26.050
Ben Gibbard: Yeah, I mean, people, you know, it's. It's. I

377
00:19:26.050 --> 00:19:28.610
don't know. I, I, you know, I guess there's a lot

378
00:19:28.610 --> 00:19:34.730
of things, a lot of side hustles one can pivot to

379
00:19:35.130 --> 00:19:38.370
when you're, you're, you have. You've built

380
00:19:38.370 --> 00:19:41.890
somewhat of a name in your respective field. But,

381
00:19:41.890 --> 00:19:43.930
you know, why would I want to judge a singing

382
00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:46.210
show or something? Why would I, you know, why

383
00:19:46.210 --> 00:19:49.600
would I. Why would I want to do anything other

384
00:19:49.600 --> 00:19:52.400
than the thing that I love doing? I don't have

385
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.280
much of a desire to do anything else. This is

386
00:19:55.280 --> 00:20:00.840
enough. And I feel in the. It seems to me, as

387
00:20:00.840 --> 00:20:02.920
I've gotten older, and this might be my old man

388
00:20:02.999 --> 00:20:06.760
showing them, shaking my fist in the clouds, but

389
00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:10.440
I've worked with some younger artists who are

390
00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:14.170
doing a lot of things, and there, There is

391
00:20:14.170 --> 00:20:19.570
something that's very liberating about the

392
00:20:19.570 --> 00:20:21.890
realization that you don't have to choose one

393
00:20:21.890 --> 00:20:24.690
path and stay on it your whole life and that you

394
00:20:24.690 --> 00:20:27.730
can try a lot of things. And I think that coming

395
00:20:27.810 --> 00:20:30.570
from, you know, our relative generation, there

396
00:20:30.570 --> 00:20:33.890
was kind of the sense of, you are one thing, you

397
00:20:33.890 --> 00:20:38.010
do that and you don't, you don't deviate from

398
00:20:38.010 --> 00:20:42.990
that. You get one identity, sort of. And maybe

399
00:20:42.990 --> 00:20:46.990
I'm just a product of being a Gen X. Gen Xer that

400
00:20:46.990 --> 00:20:51.550
I still think that way. And, you know, a lot of

401
00:20:51.550 --> 00:20:53.910
the younger people that I've worked with or come

402
00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:55.670
to know through this that do a lot of other

403
00:20:55.670 --> 00:20:59.750
things creatively, they might not do them all

404
00:21:00.070 --> 00:21:04.600
well, but they certainly seem to enjoy having

405
00:21:04.600 --> 00:21:07.080
multiple hustles going at the same time. I just

406
00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:10.200
don't. I, I just want to do. I like. I like to

407
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:12.000
write songs for other things, not just for

408
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.440
myself, but this is just what I do. I want to be

409
00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:15.920
at the end of my life, I want to be known as a

410
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.120
songwriter. And that's, that's, that's, you know,

411
00:21:18.120 --> 00:21:20.960
hopefully a good person also. But, you know,

412
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.240
that's. Professionally, I Just want to be known

413
00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.760
as a songwriter. I don't need hyphens in and

414
00:21:26.760 --> 00:21:30.880
dashes in my. In my. On my tombstone, so to speak.

415
00:21:31.070 --> 00:21:32.790
Rain Phoenix: You've got enough of those with the amount of

416
00:21:32.790 --> 00:21:35.430
bands and projects you've been in, so that's

417
00:21:35.430 --> 00:21:35.790
probably right.

418
00:21:35.790 --> 00:21:37.790
Ben Gibbard: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I've got enough already.

419
00:21:39.070 --> 00:21:42.750
Rain Phoenix: And I'm seeing behind you, like, potentially that

420
00:21:42.750 --> 00:21:46.270
you. Do you ride motorcycles or is that those

421
00:21:46.270 --> 00:21:48.510
back there? Yeah, all those numbers, like, as if

422
00:21:48.510 --> 00:21:50.030
you've been on a bike with.

423
00:21:50.590 --> 00:21:54.150
Ben Gibbard: No. Well, I've been on foot. Those are mostly I

424
00:21:54.150 --> 00:21:57.470
run my weird hobbies. I run ultra marathons. So,

425
00:21:58.070 --> 00:22:00.310
uh, these, those back there, they span the

426
00:22:00.310 --> 00:22:03.470
different. They some over 50k and 5 of them are a

427
00:22:03.470 --> 00:22:04.070
hundred miles.

428
00:22:04.230 --> 00:22:05.350
Rain Phoenix: Oh, my goodness.

429
00:22:05.590 --> 00:22:09.590
Ben Gibbard: Yeah, that's my. That's my weird. That's my weird

430
00:22:09.590 --> 00:22:11.270
hobby to call it that.

431
00:22:11.590 --> 00:22:14.390
Rain Phoenix: You mean you're in optimal health as a rock and

432
00:22:14.390 --> 00:22:17.310
roller, which sometimes can be, you know,

433
00:22:17.310 --> 00:22:20.630
counterintuitive. So congratulations on choosing

434
00:22:20.630 --> 00:22:23.710
your health while also choosing music sometimes.

435
00:22:23.710 --> 00:22:26.070
Ben Gibbard: Well, I wasn't always. I think the reason these

436
00:22:26.070 --> 00:22:27.910
are back there is because I wasn't always this

437
00:22:27.910 --> 00:22:33.420
way. You know, I. I quit. I was a pretty heavy

438
00:22:33.420 --> 00:22:38.540
drinker and. And quit in 2008. So, you know, it's

439
00:22:38.540 --> 00:22:40.580
not as I. It's not as if I. I don't like to think

440
00:22:40.580 --> 00:22:42.420
of it as I trade. Traded one addiction for

441
00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:46.060
another. But I certainly love the community of

442
00:22:46.060 --> 00:22:49.020
people that I've met through ultra running. You

443
00:22:49.020 --> 00:22:50.780
know, a lot of mountain and trail athletes. I

444
00:22:50.780 --> 00:22:52.460
spend most of my. I live in Seattle, so I spend

445
00:22:52.460 --> 00:22:54.220
most of my free time out in the mountains,

446
00:22:54.820 --> 00:22:58.460
certainly during the summer. And. Yeah, it's just

447
00:22:58.460 --> 00:23:01.180
a wonderful kind of like counterweight to just

448
00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:03.700
the amount of time that I spend in a little room

449
00:23:05.060 --> 00:23:06.180
trying to write songs.

450
00:23:06.580 --> 00:23:10.780
Rain Phoenix: Yeah, that's a nice balance. And speaking of

451
00:23:10.780 --> 00:23:16.300
Pacific Northwest, you are a true Seattle kid and

452
00:23:16.300 --> 00:23:18.820
have stayed there. Is that right? Like, that's

453
00:23:18.820 --> 00:23:21.430
where you've put down roots for a long time and

454
00:23:21.430 --> 00:23:23.910
that's where you. You've stayed. You could live

455
00:23:23.910 --> 00:23:26.350
anywhere, I assume, but you, You. You seem to

456
00:23:26.350 --> 00:23:28.830
really love the Pacific Northwest, which I do

457
00:23:28.830 --> 00:23:31.110
too. I think it's beautiful up there. I was just

458
00:23:31.110 --> 00:23:32.030
there recently, but.

459
00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:36.470
Ben Gibbard: Oh, nice. Oh, I love it. Yeah. No, I, I was. I

460
00:23:36.470 --> 00:23:41.750
was married for a very brief period of time, and

461
00:23:41.750 --> 00:23:44.950
I lived in LA during that time from like 2008 to

462
00:23:44.950 --> 00:23:49.890
2011. But I always kept a place up here. I think

463
00:23:49.890 --> 00:23:53.490
maybe in hindsight, out of. Out of foresight at

464
00:23:53.490 --> 00:23:58.570
the time. But. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I grew

465
00:23:58.570 --> 00:24:00.050
up in a Navy family, so we moved around a lot.

466
00:24:00.050 --> 00:24:02.290
But I was born in Bremerton, which is this Navy

467
00:24:02.290 --> 00:24:05.650
town across Puget Sound from Seattle. And from

468
00:24:05.650 --> 00:24:08.170
the time I was a kid and I was coming over to

469
00:24:08.170 --> 00:24:10.450
Seattle for shows or to go to record stores, just

470
00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:15.560
to bum around Capitol Hill or whatever, you know,

471
00:24:15.560 --> 00:24:18.480
I, I just. I, The. I just have these memories of

472
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.160
coming to the. The ferry boat would come around

473
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:23.160
the corner and you just see the skyline. And just

474
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:24.840
as a kid, I was like, I want to be there so bad.

475
00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:27.520
That's. I. I want to live there. So after I went

476
00:24:27.520 --> 00:24:30.160
to college in Bellingham, Washington, I. I moved

477
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:33.840
to Seattle and have lived here for. For 26 years,

478
00:24:33.840 --> 00:24:36.480
with the exception of those two ish and a halfish

479
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.200
years. I was kind of bouncing back and forth. And

480
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:41.200
I think. I think those two years living in LA

481
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:46.860
were good for me because I think, as a lot of us

482
00:24:46.860 --> 00:24:50.380
have to do in our lives, we have to leave home to

483
00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:54.300
realize that it is home. You have to leave and

484
00:24:54.300 --> 00:24:59.420
miss it and recognize that you belong there. And

485
00:24:59.420 --> 00:25:04.580
so when I came back to the Northwest full time in

486
00:25:04.580 --> 00:25:08.580
2011, I told myself, I'm never leaving this place

487
00:25:08.580 --> 00:25:13.290
again. I'm never doing it. And, you know, I, I

488
00:25:13.290 --> 00:25:17.450
don't. I just. I think. I think one thing that's

489
00:25:17.450 --> 00:25:22.450
lacking in the entertainment industry writ large

490
00:25:22.450 --> 00:25:27.890
is long relationships, old friends, you know, And

491
00:25:27.890 --> 00:25:30.850
I have friends spanning three decades here.

492
00:25:30.850 --> 00:25:31.330
Rain Phoenix: Wow.

493
00:25:31.810 --> 00:25:34.570
Ben Gibbard: And. And those are the people that I want to be

494
00:25:34.570 --> 00:25:40.650
held accountable by. Those are the people I want

495
00:25:40.650 --> 00:25:43.210
to call me out if I'm being bullshit or

496
00:25:43.210 --> 00:25:49.210
something. And in the Los Angeles that I was in,

497
00:25:49.210 --> 00:25:53.130
those people didn't exist, or they were few and

498
00:25:53.130 --> 00:25:56.050
far between, I should say. So kind of coming

499
00:25:56.050 --> 00:25:57.610
back, having that kind of brief period of time,

500
00:25:57.610 --> 00:26:00.010
and look, I love going down there. I was just

501
00:26:00.010 --> 00:26:02.250
there for work. I have friends down there. I'm

502
00:26:02.250 --> 00:26:05.570
not a hater. But this is where I belong. And I

503
00:26:05.570 --> 00:26:07.770
think it took me leaving it to realize that.

504
00:26:08.010 --> 00:26:08.410
Rain Phoenix: Yeah.

505
00:26:08.410 --> 00:26:11.650
Ben Gibbard: Yeah, I need to. This is. I. Whenever I think of

506
00:26:11.650 --> 00:26:15.170
other places I might want to live, I always come

507
00:26:15.170 --> 00:26:17.210
back to. Yeah, but it's not Seattle. It's not.

508
00:26:17.210 --> 00:26:21.130
It's not the Pacific Northwest. And this. This

509
00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:25.010
kind of bioregion, this climate, just. Just feeds

510
00:26:25.010 --> 00:26:26.650
me in a way that nowhere else really does.

511
00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:29.570
Rain Phoenix: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to

512
00:26:29.570 --> 00:26:32.330
talk with me and answer questions. I wanted to

513
00:26:32.330 --> 00:26:35.630
bring in Casey Dinell, who you' today on the

514
00:26:35.630 --> 00:26:36.230
podcast.

515
00:26:36.710 --> 00:26:37.670
Casey Dienel: Oh, hi.

516
00:26:38.230 --> 00:26:38.590
Rain Phoenix: Hi.

517
00:26:38.590 --> 00:26:39.510
Ben Gibbard: Hey, what's going on?

518
00:26:39.830 --> 00:26:40.350
Rain Phoenix: Hey.

519
00:26:40.350 --> 00:26:41.510
Casey Dienel: How are you dudes?

520
00:26:43.670 --> 00:26:46.630
Rain Phoenix: Good. How Are you. Your record is so beautiful.

521
00:26:47.030 --> 00:26:48.110
Casey Dienel: Oh, thank you.

522
00:26:48.110 --> 00:26:52.030
Rain Phoenix: I'm really happy. My goodness. What. What a

523
00:26:52.030 --> 00:26:53.430
songwriter. What a voice.

524
00:26:54.470 --> 00:26:57.190
Casey Dienel: Oh, thank you. I'm, like, going to blush.

525
00:26:58.950 --> 00:27:01.190
Rain Phoenix: There were, like, three female artists that came

526
00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:06.310
to mind immediately. To me, it was Kate Bush,

527
00:27:06.710 --> 00:27:13.430
Laurie Anderson, and Joni Mitchell. Wow. Did you

528
00:27:13.430 --> 00:27:16.270
listen to those artists growing up? Were they in

529
00:27:16.270 --> 00:27:19.230
your. Okay. Because I was like. Not that it

530
00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:22.510
sounded like them, but I felt them imbued in the

531
00:27:22.510 --> 00:27:24.790
project. I was like, wow, these are the three

532
00:27:25.590 --> 00:27:28.110
powerhouse women that are coming to my mind when

533
00:27:28.110 --> 00:27:28.950
I listen to this.

534
00:27:29.420 --> 00:27:32.860
Casey Dienel: I mean, Laurie Anderson, what a. What a genius.

535
00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:37.860
Especially just, like, the way in which she's

536
00:27:37.860 --> 00:27:40.780
able to just kind of get away with just straight,

537
00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:44.820
like, Spector Stiema, just talking. It's my

538
00:27:44.820 --> 00:27:47.260
favorite. As you. As you can probably hear. It's

539
00:27:47.260 --> 00:27:49.140
like, sometimes I want a belt, and sometimes I'm

540
00:27:49.140 --> 00:27:51.740
like, I just want to. I just want to chat.

541
00:27:53.820 --> 00:27:56.550
Ben Gibbard: I saw her play here in Seattle, I think it was

542
00:27:56.550 --> 00:27:59.430
last December, and it was one of the best shows I

543
00:27:59.430 --> 00:28:02.870
can remember seeing. It was just so inspiring to

544
00:28:02.870 --> 00:28:05.070
see someone who's been doing it as long as she

545
00:28:05.070 --> 00:28:12.430
has. And this show is just so creative and so

546
00:28:12.430 --> 00:28:13.790
fresh and exciting.

547
00:28:15.070 --> 00:28:19.150
Casey Dienel: Yeah. I had a teacher in college, Lee Hyla, who

548
00:28:20.110 --> 00:28:23.600
did a lot of Fluxus pieces and was kind of, like,

549
00:28:23.600 --> 00:28:26.080
driving. I think he was driving a, like, dump

550
00:28:26.080 --> 00:28:29.600
truck around New York with Zorn. And I always

551
00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:32.320
think, like, he kind of turned me on to a lot of

552
00:28:32.320 --> 00:28:34.120
things. Like, I'd never heard, like, Laura Nero.

553
00:28:34.120 --> 00:28:36.920
And I remember him just pressing a copy of, like,

554
00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:40.720
New York Tenderberry into my arms, being like, I

555
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.240
think you're gonna like this one. But he loved

556
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:46.200
Laurie Anderson and always had really great

557
00:28:46.280 --> 00:28:50.310
stories about her. How are you, Gibbs?

558
00:28:50.710 --> 00:28:54.550
Ben Gibbard: I'm doing good. I'm. I'm doing good. We. We're

559
00:28:54.550 --> 00:28:57.390
just kind of finishing a record. And it. I'm in

560
00:28:57.390 --> 00:29:02.790
that. That phase where all the. You know, I

561
00:29:02.790 --> 00:29:04.870
guess. I guess it is technically years of work.

562
00:29:05.910 --> 00:29:08.310
You can kind of close, you know, starting to be

563
00:29:08.310 --> 00:29:11.670
able to close that chapter. And the anxiety of,

564
00:29:11.670 --> 00:29:14.720
like, do we have it? Do we not have it? Is kind

565
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.680
of. That is. That is kind of. I'm in a very

566
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:20.680
blissful place, even given the state of the

567
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:23.120
world. So I guess I was curious if, you know,

568
00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:24.680
it's been a while since you put a record out

569
00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:26.840
when, as you're finishing this record, you're

570
00:29:26.840 --> 00:29:29.160
getting all the songs together, do you have a

571
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:32.920
similar sense of. Do you. Are you anxious, or do

572
00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:36.880
you feel a sense of calm in the Wake of finishing

573
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:38.280
a project like that or both.

574
00:29:40.130 --> 00:29:42.050
Casey Dienel: Everyone is a little different. I don't know if

575
00:29:42.050 --> 00:29:45.250
your records change from one to the next, but

576
00:29:45.970 --> 00:29:48.370
this one, I just sort of knew it was cooked. I

577
00:29:48.370 --> 00:29:51.330
was like, I'm done cooking and I gotta step away

578
00:29:51.330 --> 00:29:56.490
now. So it's very calm. But also I go into a

579
00:29:56.490 --> 00:29:59.810
state of denial that anyone will ever hear it. I

580
00:29:59.810 --> 00:30:01.930
think it's the only way I'm able to write a lyric

581
00:30:01.930 --> 00:30:05.570
that feels honest. Cause otherwise I'd just be

582
00:30:06.260 --> 00:30:08.420
honestly shitting myself thinking, like, how is

583
00:30:08.420 --> 00:30:11.940
anyone in my life gonna hear this? So I just sort

584
00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:14.940
of go into this la la land of, like, I'm just

585
00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:16.740
making it for me and no one will ever hear it.

586
00:30:17.060 --> 00:30:21.020
And somewhere when it starts to feel like there's

587
00:30:21.020 --> 00:30:24.620
like an actual, like, click that happens, and

588
00:30:24.620 --> 00:30:27.620
then the floor drops out again when I'm like, oh,

589
00:30:27.620 --> 00:30:30.780
my God, I've gotta release it. And all of that

590
00:30:30.780 --> 00:30:32.930
work happens. But I don't know, there's something

591
00:30:32.930 --> 00:30:34.970
about that loop and how it goes from being like

592
00:30:34.970 --> 00:30:37.890
this super introverted thing to a more

593
00:30:37.890 --> 00:30:40.970
extroverted process. And it's so gradual. It's

594
00:30:40.970 --> 00:30:44.050
like, because I know you write the way you write,

595
00:30:45.090 --> 00:30:48.050
you go off into the mountain, you kind of shed by

596
00:30:48.050 --> 00:30:50.370
yourself for a while, and then you bring in

597
00:30:50.370 --> 00:30:52.730
everybody else, or I bring in everyone else. And

598
00:30:52.730 --> 00:30:55.370
just slowly, you're sort of accreting more and

599
00:30:55.370 --> 00:31:00.380
more cooks and more people. And I just think that

600
00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:03.060
ecosystem feels is like my favorite thing about

601
00:31:03.060 --> 00:31:03.420
it.

602
00:31:05.180 --> 00:31:08.380
Ben Gibbard: Yeah. I mean, we were in the studio for the past

603
00:31:08.380 --> 00:31:13.020
month, and I just felt such a sense of

604
00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:16.340
accomplishment every day, even if we were banging

605
00:31:16.340 --> 00:31:18.060
our heads against a wall, the particular song,

606
00:31:18.060 --> 00:31:22.980
because it felt like honest work. And writing

607
00:31:22.980 --> 00:31:26.750
songs in a room by myself, when I feel like doing

608
00:31:26.750 --> 00:31:31.030
it, if I feel like doing it with varying degrees

609
00:31:31.030 --> 00:31:33.830
of success, sometimes months without getting

610
00:31:33.830 --> 00:31:36.710
anything I'm happy with doesn't feel like honest

611
00:31:36.710 --> 00:31:39.470
work. It feels like fucking about. It feels. It

612
00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:45.270
feels like. It doesn't feel like adult work. I

613
00:31:45.270 --> 00:31:47.190
feel like kind of like a loser. Like, it's like,

614
00:31:47.190 --> 00:31:48.630
what are you doing? I'm gonna have to tell people

615
00:31:48.630 --> 00:31:50.710
what I've been doing. Like, I'm just working on

616
00:31:50.710 --> 00:31:53.150
songs, just writing songs. Like, oh, can we hear

617
00:31:53.150 --> 00:31:54.870
anything? No, you can't, because I haven't got

618
00:31:54.870 --> 00:31:55.550
anything to share.

619
00:31:55.790 --> 00:31:56.350
Casey Dienel: Yeah.

620
00:31:56.430 --> 00:32:00.050
Ben Gibbard: But then once you finally. It becomes cemented

621
00:32:00.370 --> 00:32:04.130
and you commit and, and. And you're. And you're

622
00:32:04.130 --> 00:32:06.490
in the process of doing that daily commitment to

623
00:32:06.490 --> 00:32:11.130
a creative idea, it doesn't really scare me. I

624
00:32:11.130 --> 00:32:13.169
just get excited. I Feel like a construction

625
00:32:13.169 --> 00:32:16.570
worker who had a. You know, we're building. We're

626
00:32:16.570 --> 00:32:19.010
building a skyscraper, and we're those guys

627
00:32:19.010 --> 00:32:21.370
eating lunch on the top right before we build the

628
00:32:21.370 --> 00:32:23.170
very top. That's kind of like, oh, man, what a

629
00:32:23.170 --> 00:32:24.770
great day. I'm just get to get a view of the

630
00:32:24.770 --> 00:32:26.930
whole city. I'm eating my lunch out of my little

631
00:32:26.930 --> 00:32:30.090
lunch pail up here, and then I go home exhausted,

632
00:32:30.090 --> 00:32:31.650
and I get to do it again tomorrow.

633
00:32:32.370 --> 00:32:36.370
Casey Dienel: It's like the most useful I ever feel is when I'm

634
00:32:36.370 --> 00:32:39.290
in a studio, even when I'm not doing anything and

635
00:32:39.290 --> 00:32:41.090
I'm just sitting there being like, yep, that was

636
00:32:41.090 --> 00:32:44.290
good. Drums sound good. Like, it's the most. It's

637
00:32:44.290 --> 00:32:46.330
the most useful I feel in my life because I feel

638
00:32:46.330 --> 00:32:51.290
like in my private world, I'm just. Just like so

639
00:32:51.290 --> 00:32:55.770
bad. I'm so forgetful. I kind of barely holding

640
00:32:55.770 --> 00:32:58.050
it together, just being like, remember to pay

641
00:32:58.130 --> 00:33:02.370
Xfinity the bill. Just remember you have it. Like

642
00:33:02.370 --> 00:33:05.050
it's on autopilot. Autopay, like, stop turning it

643
00:33:05.050 --> 00:33:05.330
off.

644
00:33:10.050 --> 00:33:12.330
Ben Gibbard: I've had some friends who don't. Who are not of

645
00:33:12.330 --> 00:33:14.810
this world, ask me when I've been telling them,

646
00:33:14.810 --> 00:33:17.730
oh, I'm in the studio or I'm going to the studio.

647
00:33:17.730 --> 00:33:21.380
They'll ask me, so, is everything written, or are

648
00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:23.300
you going to write it in the studio? And my first

649
00:33:23.300 --> 00:33:25.980
thought is like, are you out of your mind? I'm

650
00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:28.300
going to write it in the studio. But then I

651
00:33:28.300 --> 00:33:30.060
realized they don't quite understand how this

652
00:33:30.060 --> 00:33:33.780
works. So I guess my question would be, when

653
00:33:33.780 --> 00:33:37.780
you're going in, do you have everything? Is

654
00:33:37.780 --> 00:33:41.500
everything in its right place? Or. And if not,

655
00:33:41.500 --> 00:33:45.260
how much space do you allow for magical thinking

656
00:33:45.340 --> 00:33:48.570
and allowing things to reveal themselves when

657
00:33:48.570 --> 00:33:49.730
you're actually committing it?

658
00:33:50.210 --> 00:33:55.050
Casey Dienel: I want to hear your answer to this, but I am a

659
00:33:55.050 --> 00:33:57.650
big believer in prep. Like, I think part of

660
00:33:57.970 --> 00:34:03.570
studio is, Sorry, this is Lou establishing

661
00:34:03.570 --> 00:34:06.210
chemistry. And those, like, lightning in a bottle

662
00:34:06.210 --> 00:34:08.210
moments that happen, like when you play live,

663
00:34:08.210 --> 00:34:10.130
those happen kind of all the time. You're like,

664
00:34:10.130 --> 00:34:12.779
wow, I can't believe we did that. But to actually

665
00:34:12.939 --> 00:34:16.179
spark that in a studio setting, just because of

666
00:34:16.179 --> 00:34:20.499
the technical implications of recording. As a

667
00:34:20.499 --> 00:34:23.819
producer, I find you gotta do a lot of prep. It's

668
00:34:23.819 --> 00:34:27.379
like a weird reverse engineering. So I go in, I

669
00:34:27.379 --> 00:34:30.059
make charts, I write everything. The lyrics are

670
00:34:30.059 --> 00:34:34.899
done. And also, I just. Maybe because I'm a solo

671
00:34:34.899 --> 00:34:36.819
artist, so it's maybe a little different than a

672
00:34:36.819 --> 00:34:41.719
band. But I just want to make sure everything I

673
00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:44.199
bring is worth everyone's time by the time I'm

674
00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:47.399
there, I don't. I want everybody to feel like, oh

675
00:34:47.399 --> 00:34:51.279
wow, like I'm so excited to play this. And

676
00:34:51.279 --> 00:34:53.399
there's parts that I leave open. I usually will

677
00:34:53.718 --> 00:34:57.079
do basic tracking and then wait and go do

678
00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:02.959
arranging. But at least some structure and like

679
00:35:02.959 --> 00:35:04.439
just some ideas so you're not like.

680
00:35:04.620 --> 00:35:04.820
Rain Phoenix: And.

681
00:35:04.820 --> 00:35:08.620
Casey Dienel: And then what happens? Like, I've done that and

682
00:35:09.020 --> 00:35:12.940
those sessions are always like so stressful. So I

683
00:35:12.940 --> 00:35:15.420
don't know. What do you do? What do you guys do?

684
00:35:18.140 --> 00:35:22.900
Ben Gibbard: I will do everything from bring in what is more

685
00:35:22.900 --> 00:35:24.980
or less a complete song. Like, here's how the

686
00:35:24.980 --> 00:35:27.460
drums go, here's how the bass goes. My guitar

687
00:35:27.460 --> 00:35:29.100
goes like this. There's a keyboard line that goes

688
00:35:29.100 --> 00:35:34.280
like that. And I did a little bit of that with

689
00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:38.480
this record that we're making right now. But what

690
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:43.560
I've realized that I need to allow that there

691
00:35:43.560 --> 00:35:47.040
needs to be some scaffolding that and an

692
00:35:47.040 --> 00:35:49.280
arrangement, a basic arrangement that we can kind

693
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:54.480
of work with and around and get back to if the

694
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.680
exploration becomes. Gets into the weeds.

695
00:35:58.000 --> 00:35:58.480
Casey Dienel: Yeah.

696
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.560
Ben Gibbard: But that I also need to leave now. Being in a

697
00:36:01.560 --> 00:36:05.400
five piece band, I have to consider five sets of

698
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.480
hands and that there are five sets of hands who I

699
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.560
don't want playing all the time, but that need

700
00:36:11.560 --> 00:36:16.480
something to do in the song. So a lot of the

701
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:19.120
demos I was making towards the end of the writing

702
00:36:19.120 --> 00:36:21.840
for this record were there's a guitar part,

703
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:23.520
there's the melody and the lyrics are done, the

704
00:36:23.520 --> 00:36:25.880
vocal arrangement's done. And I have a guitar

705
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:28.080
part and maybe a bass line that kind of. They

706
00:36:28.080 --> 00:36:29.760
kind of weave in and out of each other. And maybe

707
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.600
a drum part that kind of connects it together,

708
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:35.840
but that those things are all malleable. If we

709
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:38.880
can. And. And we can work. But at least we have a

710
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:41.120
starting point. Like maybe the guitar sits out

711
00:36:41.120 --> 00:36:42.640
the first verse and comes in for the second

712
00:36:42.640 --> 00:36:44.040
verse. Or maybe the drums are a little bit.

713
00:36:44.040 --> 00:36:45.280
They're kind of the same, but they're different.

714
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.400
And I found that the worst thing I can do is

715
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:50.800
bring in a song that's just chords and a melody.

716
00:36:51.910 --> 00:36:55.310
Because trying to reverse engineer or not even

717
00:36:55.310 --> 00:36:57.590
reverse engineer build a song from the ground up

718
00:36:58.230 --> 00:37:01.270
without any parts. I mean we're a very like part

719
00:37:01.270 --> 00:37:04.870
based band. We're not a strum a guitar. Okay,

720
00:37:04.870 --> 00:37:07.990
it's C and now it's F and you just kind of. Okay,

721
00:37:07.990 --> 00:37:10.710
so I'm playing C and now I play F. Everything's

722
00:37:10.710 --> 00:37:13.510
doing this and I like when things are doing that.

723
00:37:13.750 --> 00:37:16.030
That's interesting to me. So I Need to provide at

724
00:37:16.030 --> 00:37:19.840
least the, the basic framework for that to happen.

725
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:24.720
Casey Dienel: Same. I like make these really janky demos with

726
00:37:24.720 --> 00:37:28.040
synths for everything because I. I wish I played

727
00:37:28.040 --> 00:37:31.000
guitar. My one regret in life is I'd never. My

728
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:33.720
dad is a guitarist, but I never learned. But it's

729
00:37:33.720 --> 00:37:35.920
like my favorite instrument to write for. So I

730
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:38.320
will have these things where it's like, has this

731
00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:43.030
kind of doop dee doop sounds to get there. And

732
00:37:43.030 --> 00:37:45.070
then I sometimes go back and forth. Like some

733
00:37:45.070 --> 00:37:47.990
songs, I want people to go in demo blind, but

734
00:37:47.990 --> 00:37:50.310
I'll know what those parts are so we can work

735
00:37:50.310 --> 00:37:55.030
through it. And then other times we had one song

736
00:37:55.030 --> 00:37:58.149
on the record called Tough Thing that started out

737
00:37:58.149 --> 00:38:00.270
almost like a two and a half minute long ballad.

738
00:38:00.270 --> 00:38:02.870
And now it's just like this 11 minute praggy

739
00:38:03.750 --> 00:38:08.520
extravaganza because our drummer was just the.

740
00:38:09.080 --> 00:38:11.640
Was like, hey, what about this? And because we

741
00:38:11.640 --> 00:38:14.240
had all of that other work, you know, we knew the

742
00:38:14.240 --> 00:38:17.200
melodies, we knew what points on the guitars we

743
00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:20.000
wanted to hit. We were able to kind of pivot, be

744
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.480
like, oh, the space feels actually like what it

745
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:27.680
needs. And that is like so exciting. It's like

746
00:38:27.680 --> 00:38:30.240
skateboarding. And when you like really, you

747
00:38:30.240 --> 00:38:32.880
know, hit your stride and you're like, oof. We're

748
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:36.750
like cruising. Um, but I can't usually do that

749
00:38:36.750 --> 00:38:39.630
without like a lot of preparedness. And then the

750
00:38:39.630 --> 00:38:42.910
other thing is, I need the vibes in a studio to

751
00:38:42.910 --> 00:38:45.910
be immaculate. Like, I need, I need to be

752
00:38:45.910 --> 00:38:48.870
relaxed. I need everybody to like feel like, you

753
00:38:48.870 --> 00:38:50.830
know, in a good mood and supported. And, you

754
00:38:50.830 --> 00:38:52.510
know, there's just like, I have a very strict

755
00:38:53.390 --> 00:38:59.150
zero asshole tolerance policy, so you gotta just

756
00:38:59.150 --> 00:39:02.030
do a lot of prep. And then when I show up, I'm. I

757
00:39:02.030 --> 00:39:04.870
seem very relaxed probably, but inside I'm like,

758
00:39:05.510 --> 00:39:10.590
I hope this works. I really hope this works. But

759
00:39:10.590 --> 00:39:12.070
this time it did. It felt really good.

760
00:39:12.870 --> 00:39:15.270
Rain Phoenix: How do you guys know each other, if I may ask?

761
00:39:17.590 --> 00:39:22.230
Ben Gibbard: We. We must have. What did we meet in Portland?

762
00:39:22.230 --> 00:39:25.910
It must have been like 2013. We had some mutuals

763
00:39:27.860 --> 00:39:31.860
and. Yeah, and just. It was. Yeah, I mean, we, we

764
00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:34.060
just kind of hit it off as friends. It's like

765
00:39:34.060 --> 00:39:35.780
there's people who you meet through mutuals and

766
00:39:35.780 --> 00:39:38.100
you kind of go like, oh, nice to meet you. And

767
00:39:38.100 --> 00:39:40.180
then you don't think about them ever again. Or

768
00:39:40.660 --> 00:39:42.500
not in a bad way. You just kind of like, there's

769
00:39:42.500 --> 00:39:46.180
a lot of people in the world, you know, And I'm

770
00:39:46.180 --> 00:39:49.380
sure all of us have had those moments. And

771
00:39:49.860 --> 00:39:52.590
forgive me if this comes off a little flippant or

772
00:39:52.590 --> 00:39:54.670
rude. But, like, we've all had those moments

773
00:39:54.670 --> 00:39:56.630
where you're. You're, like, being introduced to

774
00:39:56.630 --> 00:39:58.590
somebody, and then they go, oh, we've met before.

775
00:40:00.110 --> 00:40:02.590
And you're like, okay. And. And I was like, oh,

776
00:40:02.590 --> 00:40:05.470
yes. And they're like, we met in Cleveland in

777
00:40:05.470 --> 00:40:08.350
1998. You remember that, right? I'm like, I 100%

778
00:40:08.350 --> 00:40:10.550
do. In your mind. Like, I don't fucking remember

779
00:40:10.550 --> 00:40:13.710
who at all. Because some people, you meet a lot

780
00:40:13.710 --> 00:40:14.350
of people. You.

781
00:40:14.430 --> 00:40:14.830
Rain Phoenix: You.

782
00:40:14.990 --> 00:40:17.510
Ben Gibbard: You know, people. Most people do not make a huge

783
00:40:17.510 --> 00:40:21.550
impression on. On us. Not us. The three of us.

784
00:40:21.550 --> 00:40:24.710
Just us. And as. As far as human beings go, you

785
00:40:24.710 --> 00:40:26.950
know, we're constantly meeting people. We can't

786
00:40:26.950 --> 00:40:30.070
remember everybody we've met. But Casey was

787
00:40:30.070 --> 00:40:31.830
somebody that I met. I immediately really liked,

788
00:40:31.830 --> 00:40:33.790
and she was really funny and really talented,

789
00:40:34.190 --> 00:40:37.150
and. And we've just be, you know, been friends

790
00:40:37.150 --> 00:40:37.630
ever since.

791
00:40:38.350 --> 00:40:43.470
Casey Dienel: Yeah, there's a lot of riffing. Oh, yeah. But I

792
00:40:43.470 --> 00:40:45.320
don't think we. I don't think we ever really

793
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:49.480
actually talked shop about songwriting for. Until

794
00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:51.720
we were, like, friends for five years or so.

795
00:40:51.720 --> 00:40:55.640
Like, I usually don't really talk about it with

796
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:56.200
people.

797
00:40:57.080 --> 00:40:59.720
Ben Gibbard: Well, it's a. Boring to talk about a little.

798
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.200
Casey Dienel: Yeah. And you just don't want to be, like, the

799
00:41:02.200 --> 00:41:04.200
person in the friend group that's just, like,

800
00:41:04.200 --> 00:41:06.120
sniffing their own farts in front of you. You're

801
00:41:06.120 --> 00:41:12.080
like, don't do it. So I feel like. But then

802
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:14.560
there's something nice when you do have a couple

803
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:17.160
people where you're like, oh, that's right. It's

804
00:41:17.160 --> 00:41:19.800
so nice to hear someone else be like, yeah, I was

805
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.120
banging my head against the wall for, like, a

806
00:41:22.120 --> 00:41:24.080
month on this thing, and I finally.

807
00:41:25.200 --> 00:41:27.760
Ben Gibbard: I'd like to retract. Retract. Boring. That's not

808
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:29.000
the right word because that's literally what

809
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:34.120
we're talking about right now. I more mean, I'm

810
00:41:34.120 --> 00:41:37.440
not. I've very rarely. I tend to really be turned

811
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:40.560
off by people who want to talk shop immediately,

812
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:44.920
especially when it's something like we're both

813
00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:48.360
songwriters. The idea of we meet for the first

814
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:53.080
time and we. If we. I never want to discuss my

815
00:41:53.080 --> 00:41:56.240
work, so to speak, with anybody that just seems

816
00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:02.760
like that. It's like, I'm sure we all have this

817
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:05.440
version of this where you go out to a show or

818
00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:07.520
whatever. You go out to a place where you're

819
00:42:07.520 --> 00:42:09.360
seeing other creative people that, you know, who.

820
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.960
In whatever mediums they might be in, and the

821
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:15.640
conversation devolves into, so, what are you

822
00:42:15.640 --> 00:42:18.400
working on? And it's. It's a version of. It's the

823
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.360
creative people's version of like, lovely weather

824
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:22.880
we're having today. It's just a way to fill space

825
00:42:23.120 --> 00:42:26.560
and without hearing, seeing, reading your work.

826
00:42:26.640 --> 00:42:29.200
It's. It doesn't. It's just noise, you know.

827
00:42:29.520 --> 00:42:31.440
Well, I'm working on a novel about these, you

828
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.080
know, these three astronauts. Like, that's

829
00:42:33.080 --> 00:42:34.640
fascinating. I haven't read it. I don't know

830
00:42:34.640 --> 00:42:37.400
anything about it. So it doesn't. That doesn't

831
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:40.420
tell me anything. You know, I'd rather talk about

832
00:42:40.420 --> 00:42:43.540
your thoughts on the Seattle Mariners or

833
00:42:43.540 --> 00:42:45.580
something in the news or whatever. It's like,

834
00:42:45.580 --> 00:42:47.500
that's a more interesting thing to talk about for

835
00:42:47.500 --> 00:42:50.700
me. So, yeah, we didn't start off being like,

836
00:42:50.700 --> 00:42:52.380
you're a songwriter. I'm a songwriter. Well,

837
00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:54.180
let's talk about craft, you know.

838
00:42:54.740 --> 00:42:57.820
Casey Dienel: No, also, I was really dense. I don't even think

839
00:42:57.820 --> 00:43:01.700
I'd put together Postal Service was you. Until

840
00:43:01.700 --> 00:43:04.980
that reunion tour. And I was like, oh, oh, that's

841
00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:07.380
why it sounds familiar. That's why that voice

842
00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:09.730
sounds familiar. And I was like, wow, pretty

843
00:43:09.730 --> 00:43:10.610
dense, dude.

844
00:43:15.410 --> 00:43:17.730
Rain Phoenix: So are you in the Pacific Northwest as well?

845
00:43:18.610 --> 00:43:20.890
Casey Dienel: No, I lived in Oregon for a while. I lived in

846
00:43:20.890 --> 00:43:24.849
Portland, but now I live in a little town in

847
00:43:24.849 --> 00:43:29.770
Massachusetts. And this house that I've sort of

848
00:43:29.770 --> 00:43:32.010
been. It's like my other art project I've been

849
00:43:32.010 --> 00:43:33.650
fixing up for five years.

850
00:43:34.940 --> 00:43:37.700
Rain Phoenix: Yeah, that built in. I think it's a built in

851
00:43:37.700 --> 00:43:39.020
behind you. Looks amazing.

852
00:43:39.980 --> 00:43:44.700
Casey Dienel: It's from Mexico. And I carried it down three

853
00:43:44.700 --> 00:43:47.100
flights of stairs myself and was like, that was

854
00:43:47.180 --> 00:43:49.500
stupid. Don't ever do things like that again. But

855
00:43:49.580 --> 00:43:54.100
it is beautiful. And it's full of only flower

856
00:43:54.100 --> 00:43:56.900
vases. It's completely impractical. Like, there's

857
00:43:56.900 --> 00:44:00.700
nothing I really need in there. But I. I'm a

858
00:44:00.700 --> 00:44:02.740
gardener. So beautiful.

859
00:44:03.540 --> 00:44:06.860
Rain Phoenix: Tell us about your record so we can. Our watchers

860
00:44:06.860 --> 00:44:09.940
and listeners can know when it's out, where to

861
00:44:09.940 --> 00:44:13.100
find it, if you have any tour plans. And then

862
00:44:13.100 --> 00:44:14.820
we'll. I'll say adieu.

863
00:44:15.780 --> 00:44:19.060
Casey Dienel: Thank you. My album's called My Heart as an

864
00:44:19.060 --> 00:44:21.780
Outlaw. It's out on Jealous Butcher on October

865
00:44:21.940 --> 00:44:28.100
17th. It is my first album in eight years. Real

866
00:44:28.100 --> 00:44:33.380
labor of love. Kind of a great like Wurtz of all

867
00:44:33.780 --> 00:44:40.060
like coming, returning to yourself. And I'm so

868
00:44:40.060 --> 00:44:42.420
proud of it. Some my favorite musicians are on

869
00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:46.660
it. Spencer Zahn, Max Jaffe, Meg Duffy. Just

870
00:44:46.660 --> 00:44:48.780
incredible talent. It was produced by my friend

871
00:44:48.780 --> 00:44:54.100
Adam Schatz. And I'm playing one show actually in

872
00:44:54.100 --> 00:44:59.290
LA on December 13th at Scribble, which I'm so

873
00:44:59.290 --> 00:45:01.410
excited for. Because it'll be like the official

874
00:45:01.410 --> 00:45:04.530
album release and my first show in, like, 10

875
00:45:04.530 --> 00:45:06.290
years. Wow. Right?

876
00:45:06.690 --> 00:45:07.490
Ben Gibbard: How does that feel?

877
00:45:09.330 --> 00:45:12.690
Casey Dienel: Terrifying. But I only do scary things, you know,

878
00:45:12.690 --> 00:45:15.730
if I'm not a little scared, then I usually won't

879
00:45:15.730 --> 00:45:19.450
try. But also, I think because it's going to be a

880
00:45:19.450 --> 00:45:23.330
band and it's going to be, you know, I've got

881
00:45:23.490 --> 00:45:25.690
some friends from Seattle flying now, and my

882
00:45:25.690 --> 00:45:30.250
parents are flying in and just, you know, it'll

883
00:45:30.250 --> 00:45:35.370
be a cool little reunion. And the songs are meant

884
00:45:35.370 --> 00:45:39.250
to be played live like they are truly the product

885
00:45:39.330 --> 00:45:41.890
of everybody. And, you know, we did all the

886
00:45:41.890 --> 00:45:44.850
tracking except for the horns and strings in one

887
00:45:44.850 --> 00:45:50.970
room live. And, you know, I. I love electronic

888
00:45:50.970 --> 00:45:54.090
music and I love when synthetic and organic

889
00:45:54.090 --> 00:45:57.050
textures kind of overlap. But for this, I really

890
00:45:57.050 --> 00:45:59.530
just wanted the listener to kind of feel like

891
00:45:59.850 --> 00:46:03.370
they were invited over and sat up a chair in the

892
00:46:03.370 --> 00:46:03.690
corner.

893
00:46:05.770 --> 00:46:09.570
Rain Phoenix: Yeah, that's definitely what it feels like. And

894
00:46:09.570 --> 00:46:11.610
the horns. I love the horns.

895
00:46:12.730 --> 00:46:13.210
Casey Dienel: Yeah.

896
00:46:13.610 --> 00:46:15.210
Rain Phoenix: Such beautiful arrangements too.

897
00:46:16.010 --> 00:46:20.130
Casey Dienel: Adam. Yeah. Adam Schatz to the arranging. So

898
00:46:20.130 --> 00:46:22.570
talented. If I don't know, you know, he's on tour

899
00:46:22.570 --> 00:46:25.970
right now with Nico Case and Japanese Breakfast,

900
00:46:25.970 --> 00:46:30.330
and he's just like a really, really dreamy person

901
00:46:30.330 --> 00:46:34.170
to collaborate with. Mad Scientist.

902
00:46:35.290 --> 00:46:38.570
Rain Phoenix: So cool. So glad to know that you're playing in

903
00:46:38.570 --> 00:46:45.650
LA. December 13th at Scribble. Thank you both so

904
00:46:45.650 --> 00:46:48.050
much for taking the time out of your day to talk

905
00:46:48.050 --> 00:46:53.810
about music and why you love it and to talk about

906
00:46:53.810 --> 00:46:57.050
Casey Dinell and her beautiful new record.

907
00:46:57.850 --> 00:47:01.890
Casey Dienel: This is 17. Everything in it is a true story. I

908
00:47:01.890 --> 00:47:05.610
was driving around Ireland by myself, and one

909
00:47:05.610 --> 00:47:08.640
night I went into a bar in Galway to see some

910
00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:15.240
trap music. I'm Irish, so I was just like, I'm so

911
00:47:15.240 --> 00:47:18.520
excited about Celtic music in general. And there

912
00:47:18.520 --> 00:47:21.640
was this guy that knew every single lyric and was

913
00:47:21.640 --> 00:47:24.720
kind of just like this Pied Piper figure. And

914
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.920
sometimes you just need a kick in the pants, a

915
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:33.030
random stranger to inspire you to kind of dream a

916
00:47:33.030 --> 00:47:35.790
little bigger, take some risks. So that's what

917
00:47:35.790 --> 00:47:36.710
this song is all about.

918
00:47:58.160 --> 00:48:34.540
Rain Phoenix: Sam Carol was a butterfly with a red face Saw a

919
00:48:34.540 --> 00:48:38.020
smile like his once cooked in a jack o lantern

920
00:48:38.020 --> 00:48:41.740
when he moved the whole bar swayed with him like

921
00:48:41.740 --> 00:48:45.140
all that could steady him Was making conversation

922
00:48:45.220 --> 00:48:50.660
with strange girls he said we from the in our

923
00:48:50.660 --> 00:48:56.300
dancing I wanna take up the waterl way it's where

924
00:48:56.300 --> 00:49:00.260
the lovers go I'll meet you in the morning I

925
00:49:00.260 --> 00:49:05.820
never saw him after that but before he vanished

926
00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:11.580
he said one day your look will change and a look

927
00:49:11.820 --> 00:49:21.080
that lasts as a Knocking on make and it feel when

928
00:49:21.080 --> 00:49:29.520
you're 17 I grab a fil it to place before the

929
00:49:29.520 --> 00:49:34.240
night is over One last dance before we sip away

930
00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:41.060
Feels like when you were 17 the Conan the good

931
00:49:41.220 --> 00:49:45.540
things up ahead the hope and loving the

932
00:49:45.540 --> 00:50:07.160
uncertainty still away still away still away Some

933
00:50:07.160 --> 00:50:09.920
people are like magnets they really gotta.

934
00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:11.800
Casey Dienel: Shine to him I guess he had.

935
00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:15.560
Rain Phoenix: To beat it he flew around the room like his heels

936
00:50:15.560 --> 00:50:19.560
at spider wings and he knew every lyric and when

937
00:50:19.560 --> 00:50:23.240
the bar joined and he led the second harmony

938
00:50:23.560 --> 00:50:29.080
well, lately I have the same dream I'm a coyote

939
00:50:29.240 --> 00:50:34.340
in my shadows Chasing me down the heavens in the

940
00:50:34.340 --> 00:50:38.340
moon the roads are all curious Give my final

941
00:50:38.340 --> 00:50:43.380
words that fluffy sheep Right before the hills Pe

942
00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:50.180
and me into the sea I will stay there and count

943
00:50:51.460 --> 00:51:01.550
every shade of blue and it'll feel do7te like

944
00:51:01.550 --> 00:51:08.070
right before it took place before the night is

945
00:51:08.150 --> 00:51:13.750
over One last dance before we slip away Feels

946
00:51:13.750 --> 00:51:19.750
like when you were 17 like only good things up

947
00:51:19.910 --> 00:51:24.990
ahead the hope of longing the uncertainty still

948
00:51:24.990 --> 00:51:27.390
away still away Away Steal away.

949
00:51:29.950 --> 00:51:31.150
Casey Dienel: I bought me.

950
00:51:31.150 --> 00:51:37.430
Rain Phoenix: A ticket to look down from the top of the western

951
00:51:37.430 --> 00:51:43.430
world when the elevator opened felt so low I

952
00:51:43.430 --> 00:51:43.870
couldn't.

953
00:51:43.870 --> 00:51:48.190
Casey Dienel: Come down fast enough I was skywalking.

954
00:51:49.950 --> 00:51:54.240
Rain Phoenix: Stepping out on the grass Less inside the edge

955
00:51:54.560 --> 00:51:59.680
look over the world disappearing Plastic food of

956
00:51:59.680 --> 00:52:46.170
champagne in my hand Sam before the night is over

957
00:52:46.970 --> 00:52:51.690
One last dance before we fade away Feels like

958
00:52:51.930 --> 00:52:57.930
when you were 17 the only good things up ahead

959
00:52:59.130 --> 00:53:03.050
the hope alone in the uncertainty Steal away

960
00:53:03.210 --> 00:55:31.560
Steal away still away it feels LaunchLeft aims to

961
00:55:31.560 --> 00:55:33.840
create an intentional space that highlights and

962
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:37.080
empowers all artists for whom radical creativity

963
00:55:37.080 --> 00:55:40.120
is not a choice, but a necessity. LaunchLeft

964
00:55:40.120 --> 00:55:42.440
begins with music, but its ultimate aim is to

965
00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:45.080
LaunchLeft of center artists in all creative

966
00:55:45.080 --> 00:55:45.600
fields.