Rain Phoenix [00:00:02]: Hello and welcome to launch Left Podcast. I'm your host, Rainn Phoenix. Today's very special guest is Don Was, and he'll be launching Maya Delilah. Don't forget, rate and subscribe. Follow us on all socials onchleft.

Don Was [00:00:16]: Hi, Rain. How you doing?

Rain Phoenix [00:00:18]: Hi, Don.

Don Was [00:00:20]: It's really good to see you.

Rain Phoenix [00:00:22]: It's really good to see you, too. What an absolute pleasure. I just wanted to start out by saying welcome and thank. Thank you. Thank you for your contributions to culture and music and. Unbelievable. What a storied career. But obviously, it's almost like a storied art project. You seem to have just always done what you felt guided to do in all kinds of different areas, which I really am inspired by because I've been having this conversation with a lot of people lately. There are some people who pick a lane, and they do that so well. This one thing, whether you're songwriting or musician, and I know so many of them, and I'm often, you know, been like, man, I should have done that. Maybe, like, picked one lane. But I've always bounced around myself, so I'm always inspired by people who bounce around and do it so well. And you, sir, are one of them. I just.

Don Was [00:01:20]: That's very sweet of you to say. I just. I'm just trying to do stuff that looked like fun, you know, there's not like a deeper, but there's some degree of it designed to not getting pigeonholed. I think that's. If you get pigeonholed, like after. After we did Nick of Time, I started getting. People were sending me female blues guitar players, right? We've even redheaded, right? Blues guitar. It was so specific, right? And I thought, ma'am, don't get pigeonholed. Because when whatever it is you get known for, when that, you know, appears to be out of vogue, then. Then you're screwed.

Don Was [00:02:14]: If you want to be around for.

Don Was [00:02:15]: A long time, don't let them catch it in their sights. You know, they can kill you if they can't find you. So I went from Bonnie to Iggy Pop to Neil diamond to Bob, like.

Don Was [00:02:28]: Really, like, right in the row to.

Don Was [00:02:30]: Paula Abdul to Bob Dylan, Neil Diamond, Iggy Pop, Bob Seeger. Eventually you just become the old guy.

Don Was [00:02:43]: They get you with age eventually.

Don Was [00:02:45]: But staying out of people's sight and.

Don Was [00:02:49]: And you know something? It's not that different.

Don Was [00:02:52]: You're trying to get through to people.

Don Was [00:02:54]: On an emotional level, and we all have the same emotions.

Don Was [00:02:57]: And emotions aren't different for people who.

Don Was [00:03:01]: Listen to jazz than they are to.

Don Was [00:03:03]: People who listen to bluegrass, you know, people are all the same inside. So it's just. You're just. You're traveling the same highway, but in a different vehicle, put it that way.

Rain Phoenix [00:03:17]: Yeah. But it's that soulfulness and that creative wish to find those feelings in people and awaken them that I really admire about your work and that you were able to do different genres and produce different artists. But also, you're a musician in your own right. Obviously, you were a documentary filmmaker. You were a musical director. You are all these things. I should say you're a musical director, film composer, radio host. I mean, Blue Note Records alone would be a huge wow to me since 2011, that you've been president of Blue Note Records, which their mission statement is so beautiful and speaks to that same kind of wish to connect to the, you know, the true feelings in people around music and art and that in a world that, you know, doesn't necessarily espouse those qualities in the creative as what you should want to aspire to. Right. Bringing out, you know, it's like the true core essence of what art is really about and what it's meant to do, and it's transformative nature. And I just absolutely am. Yeah, gobsmacked that when I look deeply into your work, that at the core, that's the root, it seems like, of everything you do. Like, that's what you are trying to awaken. And I love that if you go.

Don Was [00:04:48]: For that, you stand a chance of at least having some of the things you do become kind of timeless, which is what you want in the end. You know, there's some records I can listen to from, like, the 80s where I know. I can tell you what month they.

Don Was [00:05:07]: Were recorded, because I recognized the synthesizer.

Don Was [00:05:10]: Presets that everybody in the world used.

Don Was [00:05:13]: When the certain Roland synth came out.

Don Was [00:05:16]: Or, you know, and.

Don Was [00:05:18]: Or certain drum machine.

Don Was [00:05:20]: You can tell.

Don Was [00:05:21]: You can tell the LIN1 from the LIN2.

Don Was [00:05:24]: And you recognize the.

Don Was [00:05:26]: The sounds that are in there, and everybody used them.

Don Was [00:05:29]: And it. And when you listen to most of those records now, that sounds like 1983. If you listen to hey Jude, Bridge.

Don Was [00:05:38]: Over Trouble Water, that's timeless. You know, that.

Don Was [00:05:41]: That's kind of. That's a good thing to strive for. And you do that rather than chasing fashion by chasing people's hearts.

Rain Phoenix [00:05:51]: Yeah, yeah. Well said. Yeah, yeah. That kind of. There is something to be said for that timeless approach, which I think you're right, is just about, like, what's actually going to move humanity to feel. That's really all that counts. Not like, you know, the popular moment, because that is fleeting. We know that in everything creative. It's one day it's a fad, the next day it's the dumbest thing anyone would do.

Don Was [00:06:24]: Yeah, you want to transcend that, I think, especially if you want to keep doing it.

Rain Phoenix [00:06:28]: Right, right.

Don Was [00:06:30]: And that doesn't just apply to producers or engineers or it's musicians and writers. And if you go for. For the authentic rather than the trendy, you can have a. You know. But what's. Who's got a career you admire Neil Young, Willie Nelson, James Taylor. It's none of those people. Bob Dylan, you know, Bonnie Raids got the kind of career you don't have to have hit singles just to have.

Don Was [00:07:05]: People come see a year after year after year.

Don Was [00:07:08]: You just have to speak to their inner emotional lives. You gotta address that. Those are the people who endure.

Rain Phoenix [00:07:19]: Yeah. Well, let's go back then to how even music found you as a young person. And I know you were raised in Detroit, Michigan. How cool. In the 60s. What a. What a great place to have dropped in the 60s, you know, to have been born into that scene, that music scene. Wow. Do you feel that that music scene came to you first or did you find music? You know, I'd love to hear how you found music. If you found it younger and through your family, or how first you came upon it.

Don Was [00:07:51]: Yeah. Well, I'll tell you a story that. It's kind of revealing. I'm debating whether to tell it. Cause I. But. But it's an honest story. When I was about a year and a half or two years old, I.

Don Was [00:08:07]: Remember that there's a song called My Secret Love.

Don Was [00:08:10]: I think it was a Doris Day hit. Right. And it would go to this big. It had this big. I guess it was the chorus where you. Where she opened and go. Now I shout it from the highest hill. So I used to do that in.

Don Was [00:08:27]: A little squeaky voice as a like 2 year old.

Don Was [00:08:30]: And I'd go to that high note and my voice would break.

Don Was [00:08:33]: And I remember my grandparents just want.

Don Was [00:08:35]: Me to do it over and over again. They got such a kick out of it. And it did occur to me that, whoa, I'm getting over with this.

Don Was [00:08:49]: Which is what all people do, you.

Don Was [00:08:50]: Know, we're all looking for a way to get over and reproduce and not.

Don Was [00:09:03]: Starve the little things like that, you know.

Don Was [00:09:05]: But it actually can cause a lot of damage to people. I think that's what. When people freak out in their 40s as they are, want to do as Carl Jung so beautifully described in a midlife transition. I believe that that's because when we're little kids, we. We learn what helps us get over and what doesn't help us get over. And if, like, let's. Let's say you like wearing crazy shoes, okay, you like really flamboyant shoes, and you go to school and everybody teases you for that, you think, well, maybe I'll just keep this to myself.

Don Was [00:09:47]: And, and you lock all this stuff up inside of you and it's protected by armor so that in your 20s.

Don Was [00:09:54]: You can, you can get over. You can get into something that's going to support you and help you create a family and find a. A mate and all that. And when you get to be about 40, could be 38, could be 50, you know, the.

Don Was [00:10:12]: The armor that you build to house all these things that you.

Don Was [00:10:15]: That are part of you, that you kind of kept close to the vest.

Don Was [00:10:20]: That armor starts to rust and the.

Don Was [00:10:22]: Light starts shining through, and you have.

Don Was [00:10:27]: To deal with reconciling the person you've.

Don Was [00:10:30]: Become with the person inside the armor. And that's. I think that's. That's what they call midlife crisis, which is not really a crisis. It's a great opportunity to realign who you are and, and who you become and what your dreams are and, and how. How your dreams differ from reality and how to just.

Don Was [00:10:57]: How to reconcile everything. It's a great opportunity to readjust for.

Don Was [00:11:01]: The second half of your life.

Rain Phoenix [00:11:05]: Profound spiritual awakening. That sounded like, to me. It's true. It's like a crack, it crack open and the light comes out and you have to like, reconcile. Yeah, I think that's. And true. I remember it well.

Don Was [00:11:18]: Yeah, but I definitely learned that by playing music you can get over.

Rain Phoenix [00:11:22]: Yeah. Very young and not even two. That's incredible. Well, what did make you gravitate to those Detroit bands? Iggy pop, obviously, MC5, Bob Cyr, and Last Hurt. I mean, unbelievable. The proto punk bands coming out of Michigan at that time. Were you just at the perfect age or did you go have to hunt them, find. Were they. Was it obvious? Were they on radio show? Like, how did you find them?

Don Was [00:11:52]: Well, at first it was counterculture, which.

Don Was [00:11:54]: Was the coolest thing if you're a teenager.

Don Was [00:11:56]: I was, you know, 15, 16 when all these bands started playing. I saw the MC5 open for the Dave Clark 5. And I was there to see the Dave Clark 5. And the MC5 were a local band.

Don Was [00:12:09]: From Lincoln Park, Michigan.

Don Was [00:12:10]: They were still wearing suits, but they.

Don Was [00:12:13]: Blew the Dave Clark 5 off the stage.

Don Was [00:12:15]: And the Dave Clark 5 were really good.

Don Was [00:12:19]: But there was something extra going on.

Don Was [00:12:21]: With the MC5 even in that earliest phase. And I think it's.

Don Was [00:12:26]: It's got something.

Don Was [00:12:27]: It's got. Well, it's got everything to do with the character of Detroit and particularly the.

Don Was [00:12:32]: Character of Detroit in the 50s and.

Don Was [00:12:33]: 60S after World War II, people came.

Don Was [00:12:37]: From all over the world to work in the factories there.

Don Was [00:12:41]: And they brought their cultures with them. So you had this whole jambalaya of different ethnicities and different types of music.

Don Was [00:12:50]: And different types of food.

Don Was [00:12:52]: And after a while it starts to merge and. And you get a peculiar regional sound that happened.

Don Was [00:13:00]: It's almost.

Don Was [00:13:01]: The indigenous music of Detroit was shaped by global influence. But there's also something about Detroit being.

Don Was [00:13:10]: A one industry town.

Don Was [00:13:12]: You know. Everybody was in the same boat.

Don Was [00:13:17]: My parents were both teachers.

Don Was [00:13:19]: And so if. If the auto companies had a bad.

Don Was [00:13:23]: Year and laid off workers, they'd move.

Don Was [00:13:25]: Away to find another job and they.

Don Was [00:13:27]: Take their families with them.

Don Was [00:13:28]: The kids would leave and then teachers would get laid off because auto sales were down.

Don Was [00:13:32]: And barbers get laid off and waitresses.

Don Was [00:13:34]: Would get laid off.

Don Was [00:13:36]: So everybody was in the same boat. And as a result there was very.

Don Was [00:13:40]: Little point in putting on any airs.

Don Was [00:13:43]: About who you were.

Don Was [00:13:45]: Nobody.

Don Was [00:13:47]: Nobody I knew like least a Mercedes to impress their friends because everyone knew it was bullshit. You know, it was like, come on, man, we're all, we're. We're all in the same boat.

Don Was [00:13:57]: Our lives depend on. On the success or failure of the.

Don Was [00:14:00]: Auto business year after year.

Don Was [00:14:03]: When that happens, you get a real honest and down to earth and genuine population. The people of Detroit. I liked it very straight ahead, people.

Don Was [00:14:11]: No. And the music reflects that.

Don Was [00:14:15]: If you listen to John Lee Hooker, he's to me the ultimate Detroit guy. It's as raw as it comes. So raw that you don't know if.

Don Was [00:14:26]: It'S about to fall apart. Are they even going to get through this song? The bass player have any idea what the chords are?

Don Was [00:14:34]: But the.

Don Was [00:14:36]: The sum total of the whole thing is so soulful and. And it grooves like crazy, even though it's raw.

Don Was [00:14:43]: That's Detroit. So. John Lee Hooker was epic. So was Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels. That was that which had a tremendous influence on the MC5 and the studios. Mitch Rider is kind of like the godfather of Detroit rock and roll because he really fused R B and. And rock and roll in a way that no one had before. I don't think he could. Because he's an Authentic R B singer. He doesn't sound like a white kid. And. And he grew up singing in doo wop. Racially mixed doo wop bands. And he was authentic, you know, and that's who he is. So you put that against, you know.

Don Was [00:15:26]: Garage band electric guitars, and that's a startling sound.

Don Was [00:15:31]: And you can hear that the. The Stooges were just about this sinewy groove, man, that underneath they're almost James Brown, you know, in terms of adhering to a. A groove that.

Don Was [00:15:45]: That.

Don Was [00:15:45]: That just. That just carries you away. It's a.

Don Was [00:15:48]: It's a different groove than James Brown, but they were influenced by that.

Don Was [00:15:52]: A repetitive kind of thing. MC5, if you really break down the things.

Don Was [00:15:57]: And because I played with Wayne Kramer.

Don Was [00:15:59]: And some of the MC5 reduce, he.

Don Was [00:16:03]: He sent me the multi tracks. I play the songs, right.

Don Was [00:16:06]: So I got to really listen to the bass parts.

Don Was [00:16:09]: And he was. He was listening to James Jamerson more than he was listening to Paul McCartney.

Don Was [00:16:14]: Definitely not that Palm. You know, there's a lot of commonality between Jamerson and Paul. I'm certainly not denigrating Paul as a bass player because he's a marvelous lyrical, harmonic genius bass player. But there's.

Don Was [00:16:34]: The MC5 has got a soul music.

Don Was [00:16:36]: Underpinning to it, despite the roaring guitar sound. Right. That's.

Don Was [00:16:42]: That's kind of Detroit. Jack White, same thing.

Don Was [00:16:44]: Even Funkadelic, which is basically a Detroit band, even though they originally came from Jersey, they saw the MC5 plan and they said, well, we. We can come up with a different way to keep an R B groove going against this, you know, but employing electric guitars like that.

Rain Phoenix [00:17:03]: Wow. Did you actually see. I heard that you saw them. My friend Rich told me you saw them in like a school gymnasium. Both Funkadelic and MC5.

Don Was [00:17:16]: Well, it was all. There were different events, but the Parliaments.

Don Was [00:17:19]: Which is what they were called when they put out first version of I Just Want to testify, the 45 of it. They played a sock hop at my junior high school. I was in ninth grade and was in the upper gym. They had a dance in the gym and you had to take your shoes off.

Rain Phoenix [00:17:35]: That's what that means.

Don Was [00:17:36]: Up the floor of the gym. Yeah. So everyone danced in their socks.

Don Was [00:17:40]: Right.

Rain Phoenix [00:17:40]: Amazing.

Don Was [00:17:41]: So it was a kind of a.

Don Was [00:17:42]: Form of payola, actually, because you'd hire one of the disc jockeys from the AM radio station to come and emcee your dance and he'd get paid. And if you wanted your record played, you'd.

Don Was [00:17:56]: You'd do a personal appearance and Lip sync your record.

Don Was [00:18:00]: And he wouldn't, he wouldn't share his.

Don Was [00:18:02]: 200 fee with you.

Don Was [00:18:04]: You'd do that to get played on the radio. So George Clinton and the Parliaments, who at that time were just a five piece vocal group like the Temptations, except they were dressed like hippies. They didn't wear tuxes or.

Rain Phoenix [00:18:22]: Right.

Don Was [00:18:23]: So didn't.

Don Was [00:18:27]: I don't know if it predated Jimi Hendrix, but it was Synchronous with Jimi Hendrix, just an R B performer, but.

Don Was [00:18:41]: They'Re looking like hippies and no one knew what to make of it. It was.

Don Was [00:18:46]: Right. It was just. It was the coolest thing.

Don Was [00:18:51]: So yeah, I saw them the Stooges played at my high school.

Rain Phoenix [00:18:54]: That's crazy.

Don Was [00:18:55]: I saw the MC5 and Ted Nugent's.

Don Was [00:19:00]: Band, the Amboy Dukes used to play at a geodesic dome at a shopping.

Don Was [00:19:05]: Center right behind my house. So it's called the Mum.

Rain Phoenix [00:19:09]: Wow.

Don Was [00:19:09]: And it was.

Don Was [00:19:10]: They didn't serve liquor so 16 year.

Don Was [00:19:12]: Olds could go, oh, that's good. And so we used to see them play all the time.

Don Was [00:19:19]: I could hear them from my bedroom.

Don Was [00:19:21]: I was that close to the place.

Rain Phoenix [00:19:22]: Oh my gosh. And you started Was not was with your childhood friend. Right. So you grew up with David Weiss? Is that his name?

Don Was [00:19:32]: Yeah.

Rain Phoenix [00:19:34]: And so were you guys always doing music when you were teenagers together but didn't do the band till later? How did that all come together?

Don Was [00:19:41]: We were, you know, the, the thing.

Don Was [00:19:44]: That you did in high school was basically you get stoned and you, you drive to the street called Woodward Avenue.

Don Was [00:19:50]: Which is like the main drag in Detroit. Runs all the way up the city from, from the foot of downtown and from about 8 mile road to about 18 mile road.

Don Was [00:20:01]: You just cruise up and down.

Don Was [00:20:03]: You try to.

Don Was [00:20:03]: You pull up next to girls and.

Don Was [00:20:05]: You try to hit on them. See if you get a phone number. And that was what you did.

Don Was [00:20:11]: And we were unsuccessful, I think about 99% of the time.

Don Was [00:20:16]: So we, we go back to one of our houses dejected, and we both.

Don Was [00:20:21]: Had tape recorders and we'd start making.

Don Was [00:20:23]: Records, you know, but it was just burning off the, the. The steam that would have properly been burned off companion. So we, so we just started doing that and, and we, we never really stopped. But there came a point where we actually, you know, we got access to real recording studios and learned how to make records.

Rain Phoenix [00:20:52]: And that. That became Was not was.

Don Was [00:20:54]: That became Was not was. Which is kind of a. It started really as a kind of a studio conglomeration and we were trying to take all the sounds that we grew up with. Detroit jazz, Detroit R and B and funk, and Detroit rock and roll. And local hero beat poet was John Sinclair, who, you know, was also kind of like the leader of the counterculture in Detroit. And so it was some. A combination of beat poetry and maybe it's. It's not a Detroit influence, but Frank Zappa, that first Freakout album really had a profound effect on us. So we tried to merge all that into one thing. And that became Was Now Was. And then out of that, the musicians that we got closest to became a band and we started touring.

Rain Phoenix [00:21:47]: I remember, I mean, I was a big fan of like, you know, lounge lizards in the late 80s. And I was a teen at the time. My brother river and I had our first band then and started touring up the East Coast. And. And I do remember that song we would listen to was not. Was as well. And specifically that song, dad, I'm in Jail or something. I remember that. I was like, wait a second, I know that song. I remember that from being a kid. And we just thought that was so funny. And the way it was delivered cracked us up. I'm happy. I love it.

Don Was [00:22:23]: I like it here.

Rain Phoenix [00:22:25]: Yeah, that's it. I like it here. It's great.

Don Was [00:22:27]: Here's what happened with that song because it's a really super important lesson for musicians.

Don Was [00:22:33]: The guy at our record company, guy.

Don Was [00:22:35]: Named Michael Zilke, who started Z Records, which was the label we were assigned.

Don Was [00:22:38]: To, great guy, really had a great ethos that he brought to music. He made quirky dance records that were. That were cool and, and literate. That's what he was interested in. He publishes books now. He was calling us.

Don Was [00:22:58]: We were in Detroit making these records and he, he said, I. I want a cassette every night. You're like my babies.

Don Was [00:23:05]: I want to hear what you.

Don Was [00:23:06]: So in those days that meant sitting there after the session, which was usually.

Don Was [00:23:12]: At 9 o'clock in the morning, and.

Don Was [00:23:14]: Running a cassette in real time. And there were no assistants or, you know, so that meant making a cassette.

Don Was [00:23:21]: And driving to FedEx before. At the end of the session.

Don Was [00:23:25]: So after about two or three days, that became really oppressive.

Don Was [00:23:28]: So we thought, let's put an end.

Don Was [00:23:30]: To this by sending him the most outrageous thing we can do. So very quickly we. We programmed a bunch of sequencers and.

Don Was [00:23:38]: Drum machines with the volume off, so we had no idea what was going to be playing. And.

Don Was [00:23:45]: And then, and then I said, today. I said, just go out there and yell something. And Dave McMurray our sax player stood on one mic and David improvised that whole thing.

Don Was [00:23:54]: So it was written, recorded, and mixed.

Don Was [00:23:59]: All in one take.

Rain Phoenix [00:24:02]: I love it.

Don Was [00:24:04]: And then we put that on the cassette and, and the idea was to send it to him and, and have him say, all right, all right, you.

Don Was [00:24:11]: Don'T have to send me every stupid thing you do.

Don Was [00:24:13]: Right.

Don Was [00:24:13]: So. So I FedExed it to him, got up super early the next morning because.

Don Was [00:24:17]: I couldn't wait to hear what his.

Don Was [00:24:19]: Reaction was going to be when he.

Don Was [00:24:20]: Got it in New York. And of course he called up and said, it's the most wonderful thing you've ever done. It was.

Don Was [00:24:27]: Right. It's been in like 10 movies.

Don Was [00:24:30]: And it was.

Don Was [00:24:31]: The lesson was just stop thinking and be yourself.

Rain Phoenix [00:24:36]: Yeah, just.

Don Was [00:24:38]: Just be true to who you are.

Don Was [00:24:40]: And that's.

Don Was [00:24:41]: That's who we are at the core. Everything else was finesse and nuance and.

Don Was [00:24:48]: And at least somewhat thoughtful and intentional. But there was no intention behind this except to just be real. And that's. That's a really good lesson to learn for everybody.

Rain Phoenix [00:25:00]: Yeah. Thank you for that, Jem. Absolutely. I'm glad I brought it up. It was like, that was one that stuck out to me that I was like, oh, remember that song? It was moving truth. It was real. Yeah, absolutely. Well, now you have the Pan Detroit Ensemble. Is that right? And that's like the new project you're working on. And it's made up of jazz musicians in Detroit right now, like existing badass jazz musicians in Detroit. What made you want to go home again and kind of do a Detroit based project?

Don Was [00:25:36]: Well, someone gave me a gig which.

Don Was [00:25:37]: Came with a deadline.

Don Was [00:25:38]: Terence Blanchard called me and said, you.

Don Was [00:25:40]: Want to do perform one night in.

Don Was [00:25:42]: The series that he was doing?

Don Was [00:25:44]: And I said, yes, but I didn't have anything together, didn't have a band, hadn't had a band for them really long time. One of the things I learned early on, there was a point like somewhere around like maybe 1990, 1991, where in rapid succession I produced a bunch of my heroes. Brian Wilson, Bob Dylan, Kris Kristofferson, Willie Nelson, Rolling Stones, like, all.

Don Was [00:26:13]: All in the same year.

Don Was [00:26:15]: And watching these masters, these geniuses up.

Don Was [00:26:20]: Close, man, gave me the worst case.

Don Was [00:26:24]: Of writer's block ever, man.

Don Was [00:26:26]: Because anytime I sat down at a.

Don Was [00:26:28]: Piano to write something, I think, well, man, you know, Brian Wilson's like a mile away. Just give him the lyric, man.

Don Was [00:26:34]: And.

Don Was [00:26:34]: And, you know, you're not as good as him.

Don Was [00:26:38]: I didn't do anything for about five.

Don Was [00:26:40]: Or six years except just produce, you know, my heroes, right. And then I thought about it and it hit me. I. I was thinking specifically about Willie and bemoaning the fact that I'd never be as good as Willie. And I thought, well, that's okay, man.

Don Was [00:26:56]: You know, because there's something you can bring to music that he can't.

Don Was [00:27:00]: He didn't drop AC and go see.

Don Was [00:27:03]: The MC5 when he was 16.

Don Was [00:27:05]: You know, he didn't grow up in that home millionaire. He didn't go to the Fox Theater.

Don Was [00:27:09]: As a teenager to see the Motown.

Don Was [00:27:11]: Review, which was like Marvin Gaye and the Temptations and Martha and the Vandellas.

Don Was [00:27:16]: Like playing to a half empty theater, a matinee. If I just, the, if I just would realize that the thing that made me different from Willie Nelson was not a problem. It was my superpower.

Don Was [00:27:31]: He can't.

Don Was [00:27:32]: I can't be him, he can't be me. So I may not be as good as him. I'm definitely. I never will be close, but there's.

Don Was [00:27:40]: A thing I can bring because of, of who I am. Yeah. When it came time to put a band together, I thought, don't try to.

Don Was [00:27:50]: Be Robert Glasper, don't try to be Charles Lloyd, don't try to be John Coltrane. Just get in a room with like minded individuals and see what you come up with. So that's what, that's what we did.

Don Was [00:28:01]: A couple of these guys in the band, Dave McMurray, Luis Resto, I've been playing with them for 45 years.

Don Was [00:28:07]: Dave McMurray is the guy who's blowing.

Don Was [00:28:09]: Sacks on hello dad, I'm in Jail.

Don Was [00:28:11]: He's.

Don Was [00:28:12]: He's on Blue Note Records now.

Don Was [00:28:14]: Louie Resto, I hired him for his first session when he was a teenager.

Don Was [00:28:18]: He's gone on to co produce and co write with Eminem. He wrote Lose Yourself one and won an Oscar for it.

Don Was [00:28:27]: So these are guys I've known forever.

Don Was [00:28:28]: And we just, we just know each other.

Don Was [00:28:31]: We know where the musical conversation's gonna go.

Don Was [00:28:34]: And what happened was that we got nine people together in a room and everyone locked like immediately. We're making a new album now and.

Don Was [00:28:42]: One of the songs on the album is the first take of Running Through a song. The very first day we all got together, I just called a rehearsal in the studio and fortunately we set up.

Don Was [00:28:53]: Microphones and it just felt comfortable and familiar from the get go. And even though we've been playing together less than a year, it feels like we've known each other forever because we.

Don Was [00:29:08]: All grew up listening to the same.

Don Was [00:29:09]: Stuff, and we grew up in the same environment. So the lesson is, be yourself 100%.

Don Was [00:29:17]: The thing that makes you different from.

Don Was [00:29:19]: Everybody else is your strength.

Rain Phoenix [00:29:22]: That's not a weakness 100%. I think I'm wondering too now hearing that. Do you. Would you agree that. That that helped to form, like, the trust that some of those legacy artists that you mentioned have in you also in regard to the tribute albums that you've been entrusted to and the multitracks and the, you know, the hidden vaulted tapes of some of the Rolling Stones, or that you're doing reissues that you are entrusted to, that my gut feeling would be like, wow, obviously, aside from befriending them and getting to know each of them and them feeling closer to you as a person, that they could see that you kind of. You're looking, you're always searching, it seems like, for the realness in something. And you're also realizing in yourself, like, I gotta be who I am. I have to be real to. To actually say something like, I don't need to be competing, I need to just be who I am. Or, you know, and. And that. That led to some of that, like. So that's a lot of trust to have you be that guy. That's often gone to. For those sort of legacy acts. Do you feel that?

Don Was [00:30:36]: I think for. For anybody to. You have to. If you're going to hire a producer, you. You gotta open up, be vulnerable, and let them see what's really going on. If you try to hide from your producer, it's kind of a waste of time. So in some ways, it's like being a shrink, you know?

Rain Phoenix [00:30:57]: Yeah.

Don Was [00:30:58]: You get. You get inside the person and you gotta treat that with respect.

Don Was [00:31:08]: Look, there are many ways to produce a record.

Don Was [00:31:10]: Some. Some producers are auteur producers. Daniel Lanmois, someone who comes to mind, friend of mine, tremendous admiration for him. But we make records in a really different way. Daniel weaves this tapestry that's uniquely his. And if you want him to produce your record, you're going to be placed into that tapestry. There's nothing, no judgment about that at all. That's, you know, he's made incredible records. Maybe the best Bob Dylan records ever, you know, were made when he was somehow involved in it. So I have tons of respect for it. It's just not what I do. The way I approach producing is to try to work with really great people and help them be the best version of who they are. Not to. Not to leave my thumbprint on their forehead. That just doesn't. I don't know why you do that. Well, I do know why you do it.

Don Was [00:32:13]: If you have, if you, if you have this strong artistic vision as a.

Don Was [00:32:18]: Producer and, and, and that's what you want to chase, you know, like, I think, you know, like R B producers.

Don Was [00:32:25]: Like Baby Face, Babyface would make these records, he could sing them and then a singer come in and he'd give you the phrasing on how to do it.

Don Was [00:32:33]: He, he was as much the artist.

Don Was [00:32:35]: That's a, that's, that's a perfectly legitimate.

Don Was [00:32:38]: Way to produce records. Another great way to produce records is to go play golf while the band's.

Don Was [00:32:45]: In the studio and come in at 2:00 and say, ah, the bridge sucks.

Don Was [00:32:49]: Make it better and leave that.

Don Was [00:32:51]: That's maintaining some objectivity. That's got value too.

Don Was [00:32:54]: I don't. There's no correct way to do it.

Rain Phoenix [00:32:57]: Right.

Don Was [00:32:58]: But my way is to respect who the artist is and try to help them be that without agenda.

Rain Phoenix [00:33:11]: Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like what you're saying is the correct way is what's correct for you. Or in your case, you really focus on the artists and at the soul level, who they are and how to bring that out and show that and different producers. What's correct for them is bringing their stamp or like you said, bringing their absence and then coming in with a fresh take, which is. All of them are valid. But I imagine that with you explaining the way you produce it even more makes me think about some of these legacy artists and how deeply the connection must have been. Because when you're working like that with these artists who've been in it forever and know their shit and know how they like their stuff, but they're also open and you're, you know, like you said, more in that shrink position of really seeing the full spectrum of their psychology and how they came to be. And they entrust that to you. Like, that must be so rewarding to produce and then finish and see the results of that communion, you know, of a, of a great producer and an artist that are like legacy together. And it shows in the work that you've done with those artists. It's, it's remarkable.

Don Was [00:34:27]: Thank you.

Rain Phoenix [00:34:28]: I mean, so cool.

Don Was [00:34:29]: It's, It's a big thrill to be around the best people. You know, people like Bob Dylan, man. Like.

Don Was [00:34:37]: Yeah, he's. He's done incredible things that no one.

Don Was [00:34:42]: Can really touch for like 60 some years. You know, that's, that's, that's amazing. What what's going on with him? You know, like one time I asked him, I said, how come.

Don Was [00:34:54]: How come you can write Gates of.

Don Was [00:34:56]: Eden and I can't? And he said, well, if it's any consolation to you, I remember moving the pencil over the page, but I didn't write it. It was. It was coming through me.

Rain Phoenix [00:35:10]: Amen.

Don Was [00:35:11]: I actually just thought he was trying.

Don Was [00:35:12]: To make me feel better.

Don Was [00:35:13]: But then as I worked with more and more people, the really great ones will all tell you the same thing.

Rain Phoenix [00:35:21]: Absolutely.

Don Was [00:35:22]: It's.

Don Was [00:35:22]: They don't know where it comes from.

Rain Phoenix [00:35:24]: Yeah.

Don Was [00:35:25]: But they definitely. There are people who can channel the stuff that'll blow your mind.

Rain Phoenix [00:35:32]: Yeah.

Don Was [00:35:33]: The way I look at it is I imagine like a creative ether out there. Right. And all the good ideas are up there, but the great ideas. Gates of Eden, Visions of Johanna.

Don Was [00:35:45]: That's floating at.

Don Was [00:35:46]: All the way at the top. And who's got an arm long enough.

Don Was [00:35:51]: To reach up to the very top.

Don Was [00:35:53]: And pull those things down? Very few people do. And so being able to watch them work, watch them write, watch them create. Wait. What a.

Don Was [00:36:06]: What a great thrill and learning experience.

Don Was [00:36:09]: You can learn a lot.

Rain Phoenix [00:36:12]: What a legacy, too. Yeah. For you too. Like you said, to be in the company of those people, but to be one of those people and to be a multi platform one of those people. Dawn, you just make my heart sing. And I'm so grateful you spent these 38 minutes or so with me. I feel like we could talk for two hours, but I see Ms. Maya Delilah in the waiting room and thought maybe we ought to bring her in and add her to this conversation. All right, here we go. We love it. We love that the rock was your screensaver.

Maya Delilah [00:36:58]: I forget that that's there.

Don Was [00:37:01]: Very good choice.

Rain Phoenix [00:37:03]: Hilarious.

Maya Delilah [00:37:05]: Oh, thank you.

Rain Phoenix [00:37:06]: Thank you.

Don Was [00:37:07]: Is the rock your. Your. Your soulmate, your spirit animal?

Rain Phoenix [00:37:12]: O, yeah, I think he is. I think he's my favorite. I hear you're taking a little break from rehearsal just to talk to us. And so grateful. Welcome to launch Left. Welcome to the show.

Maya Delilah [00:37:28]: Thank you so much for having me. Such an honor.

Rain Phoenix [00:37:31]: Yeah. Your music. I've been listening to your record. Oh, my gosh. I feel so lucky. Like, I got a little advanced copy and. And it's just absolutely stunning. Your voice is so special.

Maya Delilah [00:37:45]: Thank you so much.

Rain Phoenix [00:37:46]: Thank you. Like, I don't know, I hear we were just talking about it, dawn and I. This sort of this ether where all good things are beamed to people, you know, And I feel like your voice, even your writing, all of it is there. But when I heard your voice, I had that, like, visceral response of angels singing. You know what I mean? Like, wow. Felt so special.

Maya Delilah [00:38:11]: Yeah, that's very kind to say.

Rain Phoenix [00:38:15]: Yeah. And this is your first record. This will be your debut album.

Maya Delilah [00:38:20]: Yeah. So surreal.

Rain Phoenix [00:38:23]: The long way around. That's a very Brit way of saying the long way around. Yeah. Yeah.

Maya Delilah [00:38:34]: Well, I'm. I'm kind of glad because. Because I've been told so many times that people think I'm American and that I should, like, be more British. So I'm glad that maybe there's something in there that people will just be able to tell straight away.

Rain Phoenix [00:38:49]: Yeah. They'll be like, what's round? Long way round. I just don't get it. Like, what?

Maya Delilah [00:38:56]: The riddle.

Don Was [00:38:57]: The riddle.

Maya Delilah [00:38:57]: No one knows.

Rain Phoenix [00:38:59]: Yeah. So that must be exciting for you, though. This is your first record. And on and on. Blue Note. I mean. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Maya Delilah [00:39:08]: Such an honor. I pinch myself every day.

Rain Phoenix [00:39:13]: Have you all met a lot, worked together already, or are you. Is this like. Share how you came to know each other?

Don Was [00:39:23]: Well, we've known each other for.

Don Was [00:39:25]: For a while now because.

Don Was [00:39:26]: Because she really did come the long way. One of the.

Don Was [00:39:33]: One of the.

Don Was [00:39:34]: The younger A R people who. Who work at Blue Note, Alex Anastasi, who's really got a great intuitive sense of. Of what is extraordinary. Spotted. Maya. I. I think it was during. I think I remember talking to you during COVID You know, when I remember talking from. From the rv, I was moving around.

Rain Phoenix [00:39:56]: Yeah.

Maya Delilah [00:39:57]: Yeah.

Don Was [00:39:58]: And so she was building this incredible.

Don Was [00:40:01]: Following, playing guitar on the floor of her bedroom and, and, and.

Don Was [00:40:08]: And making these little videos for social.

Don Was [00:40:10]: Media that were really becoming popular and. And they drew Alex's attention. And if you watched it, you couldn't help but notice that there was something special going on with Maya, that what she was doing. You know, a lot of people can get attention with pyrotechnics and, you know, squeezing a million notes, you know, doing acrobatics, basically. And that's not what she was doing. What she was doing was incredibly soulful and moving, and it was kind of wild to see it, you know, just from a bedroom floor like that. Now, a lot of artists, I don't think, successfully make the transition from TikTok artist to recording artist. And it's been remarkable to watch Maya put this record together and try different things and experiment and land on her.

Don Was [00:41:13]: Own voice, which is extraordinary.

Don Was [00:41:15]: And I think she's accomplished something that very few people have been able to pull off, which is To. Which is to go from that kind of social media phenomenon to super deep.

Don Was [00:41:29]: Artists and to make an album this.

Don Was [00:41:32]: Sophisticated as a debut album, that's.

Don Was [00:41:34]: That's so rare, man.

Don Was [00:41:35]: You know?

Rain Phoenix [00:41:36]: Yeah.

Don Was [00:41:37]: So I really believe Maya is going to be around for a long, long time and that people are going to be listening to records 100 years from now. And it's. It's been great to get to know.

Don Was [00:41:49]: Her and, and to watch really, from a distance.

Don Was [00:41:52]: I. I haven't been to the studio ever. Well, for any of her sessions, but to just watch her figure it out. And I guess that's. That's the title, right? Long Way Round. It's a. It was a long journey to, To. To get to this album. Right.

Maya Delilah [00:42:11]: Oh, thank you so much. That's. Yeah. I mean, I think being given the chance to make an album in the way that I made it, and it's thanks to you, Don, for putting me in the room with the right people and the people to bring sides out of me that I didn't know and ways of making music that I didn't know were possible. And just kind of everything that went into this record was. Was definitely pushed by you. And. Yeah, it's. Yeah. I mean, I wonder what it would. What it would sound like if it hadn't gone down this route. And I'm so happy that I will never know.

Don Was [00:42:47]: Yeah, I'm happy too.

Don Was [00:42:49]: I mean, there were some. Definitely some false starts, some. Some things. Some things we tried that didn't work, but it's part of the discovery process, I think.

Don Was [00:42:59]: You know, having. I've only been on. I'm old.

Don Was [00:43:02]: I'm 72, you know, so running a record company for 13 years, that's just a small part of my life.

Don Was [00:43:07]: For most part, I was on. On the other side of it. And I could observe that the biggest.

Don Was [00:43:14]: Mistake record companies make is to sign someone that they see a spark in and then as soon as they're signed, they try to change them and make.

Don Was [00:43:23]: Them adapt to whatever is trendy in that exact moment. And we've really tried to do the exact opposite, which is find someone who's got that spark and then help them realize that spark. Almost in a.

Don Was [00:43:37]: In a fashion vacuum.

Don Was [00:43:40]: Like just be your.

Don Was [00:43:42]: This is what we were talking about earlier. Super being yourself.

Rain Phoenix [00:43:46]: Yeah.

Don Was [00:43:46]: Is your.

Don Was [00:43:46]: Is your super strength.

Rain Phoenix [00:43:48]: Yeah. Superpower.

Don Was [00:43:51]: I do think if you listen to.

Don Was [00:43:52]: This record, you, You. You know Maya, you know about her.

Don Was [00:43:56]: And not only that, but you see yourself in there too.

Don Was [00:43:59]: That's.

Don Was [00:43:59]: That's the beauty of it.

Don Was [00:44:00]: It's, it's you.

Don Was [00:44:02]: You can relate to these songs.

Rain Phoenix [00:44:04]: Exactly.

Don Was [00:44:06]: Why should a 72 year old man.

Don Was [00:44:08]: Be able to relate to.

Don Was [00:44:11]: 22 year old English girl songs?

Don Was [00:44:14]: But I can because she's a communicative.

Don Was [00:44:17]: Artist and she's, she's going.

Rain Phoenix [00:44:20]: She.

Don Was [00:44:20]: Her songs penetrate.

Don Was [00:44:22]: They get under your skin, you know.

Don Was [00:44:24]: And, and you, you can find your own way to, to hang your inner emotional life. Great songs. And that's what she's got.

Rain Phoenix [00:44:35]: Yep. And that's what all great songs do. And it's like incredible that the joining of, you know, you all finding each other, you developing Maya or offering her wonderful people to work with and bringing that out. It's like, now that's happening, you know, it was all there, but it's like awakening that and finding the space for it and the time. I mean, I think a lot of, A lot of what can be somewhat depressing for emerging or smaller artists is not. The developing of artists is gone. And there's not a lot of guidance either. And there are so many wonderful artists out there that have a voice that want it to grow, want to find themselves, but don't have the resources really to do all those things. So it always warms my heart when I see that happening. And this is a wonderful example of that. I mean, your lyrics are so soulful and poignant and like you said, timeless. Where, you know, I'm a 50, 52, you're 72, you're 22. That's. There's a big, there are big jumps in generations there, but we can all relate because they're saying something that's touching, like on a soul level, all of us, you know, and that's the best kind of songwriting, is that timeless. We know this is all funny because dawn and I had a conversation before you hopped on and these themes keep coming back that we start talking about. It's all within your music really, and your voice. Is there something that you're. Or a song that you most excited about on the album or something that you most have taken from the experience of making the album that has been transformative for you? Is there something you can share about that process?

Maya Delilah [00:46:23]: 100%. I think the biggest transformative thing for me was making at least, I think maybe just half the album, six songs at least in this studio in Devon that Pete Don recommended that this man called Pete Miles owns. And he's such an analog guy and he records everything on tape. He hasn't really heard any music past the 80s. He doesn't really have wi fi you're kind of just like in a proper space for like, five days where you're listening to music in the purest form, making music in the purest form. And that's kind of. It completely changed my way of making music. And I'd come with a group of writers and musicians and we'd write songs in the morning and record them in the afternoon. Just one or two takes for the live band. And that's what half the album is, at least when we'd wake up each day, we'd put on a vinyl in the morning as we'd have breakfast, and that would set the tone for the music of the day. And I was super into listening to music that I listened to in my childhood and making the music sound nostalgic. And I kind of said when this record was done that my biggest hope for it is that it sounds nostalgic to someone that I don't know and that's never met me or never listened to my music before and that they can feel that. And I think it's just like going back to my roots of music and lyrically and like, kind of. I don't know, there's just something in it where I hope that it feels comforting to someone and feels like a kind of warm childhood hug. And I think most of that process was learned and done during my time in Devon making those songs.

Rain Phoenix [00:48:11]: Wow. And did you. Were you on a social media fast during that time?

Maya Delilah [00:48:16]: Oh, yeah.

Rain Phoenix [00:48:17]: Good for you.

Maya Delilah [00:48:18]: Anytime I can be, I'll take it.

Rain Phoenix [00:48:21]: I know it's such a big responsibility. That whole digital part of an artist's life now. Sounds like you're really good at that, though. Sounds like that's how you were even discovered. So good for you. But I'm glad to hear you took a moment away from that. Are your family really excited for you to make a record and put it out? I imagine, like, your friends and family are pretty stoked.

Maya Delilah [00:48:47]: Yeah, My. My parents are like big music people. Big, big music fanatics and. And showed me all the music that I grew up to love. And we've all listened to vinyl forever and, yeah, very. They're very, very excited.

Rain Phoenix [00:49:03]: And do you plan to tour and all that once the record comes out or play some shows?

Maya Delilah [00:49:07]: Yeah, absolutely. With I kind of in the works of figuring out exact, like, bigger tours. I've got a record store tour coming up when the album's out, the week of the album launch around the uk, so I'll just be playing the record by myself in record shops and selling vinyls. And stuff, which I'm really excited about. But yeah, bigger touring plans are coming soon.

Rain Phoenix [00:49:27]: Oh, fantastic. Well, I hope I get to catch you live soon. That would be amazing. And I've already shared your record and told people like, it's coming the 28th. You need to save this. You're going to love it. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's so beautiful. Congratulations. And on working with dawn and I mean, what a treat. Thank you both so much for being on the show. Is there anything that you wanted to share about how maybe. I mean, I'm sure we'll put this Also in our YouTube how to find you and everything, but is there anything either of you want to share that you're working on that you want the world to know about that I haven't spoken about or brought up or anything you want to share?

Don Was [00:50:10]: You know, one thing I would like to add and, and you, you're, you're.

Don Was [00:50:15]: Both very sweet for giving me credit.

Don Was [00:50:17]: For stuff, but there, this was an incredible team effort. I'm really proud of the, of the.

Don Was [00:50:22]: Whole Blue Note team.

Don Was [00:50:24]: Alex, who hadn't Maya's first artist that he signed and he's been incredibly devoted. He went to the sessions and he hadn't made a record before and his.

Don Was [00:50:36]: Instincts were so finely tuned, but everybody.

Don Was [00:50:38]: Involved from, from Bridie, the product, product manager, you know, just everybody who's been.

Don Was [00:50:43]: Involved with it in the whole company really.

Don Was [00:50:49]: Wanted the best things for Maya and had the patience not to, not to push, you know, until everything was, was right. And they, they've been really supportive. I'm, I'm, I'm real proud of the whole effort to. It's a real group effort that, that laid this foundation for her to become who she is. And.

Don Was [00:51:12]: It'S cool.

Don Was [00:51:12]: And I'm proud of you, Maya. You did a spectacular job here.

Maya Delilah [00:51:16]: Thank you. Yeah, I mean the whole team is incredible. And I remember, I don't know if you remember this, Don, but our very first call, or maybe one of the calls just before I signed with you guys was I remember you saying you can make whatever music you want. And then I think he said, make a 20 hour long psychedelic record for all I care. Just make a record. And I like, I really, that has been my experience being signed to you guys is that you just want the artists to make music that they love and it's not like any other label where they're just pushing for you to make hits. It's like pure music and everyone is so supportive of that and it's like Nothing I've ever experienced, nothing any of my musician friends have ever experienced. And I feel so grateful for that.

Don Was [00:52:01]: Real nice.

Rain Phoenix [00:52:03]: Well, it sounds like, Don, as president of Blue Note, you really are maintaining that mission statement of the record label by offering that space for artists to do that. And it really is the power of community at work. It takes a village. It really does. And gratefully, for an artist like Maya Delilah, hells yeah. I'm glad that you found your village and that they're all supporting you and really excited for your career to take off in this first debut record. So all of you out there, go get Maya Delilah. Let's see, what was it? It's a long title, and I'm not British. No, I'm kidding. Maya Delilah. The long way around. The long way around. So go out and get Maya Delilah. The long way around. All right, y'all, thank you so much.

Don Was [00:52:57]: Thank you. Greg.

Rain Phoenix [00:52:58]: Lovely speaking with you.

Don Was [00:53:00]: Yeah, I really enjoyed speaking with you.

Don Was [00:53:02]: You asked really good questions.

Rain Phoenix [00:53:03]: Oh, thanks.

Don Was [00:53:04]: And you had great insight into things. I enjoyed the chat.

Rain Phoenix [00:53:10]: Launch Left aims to create an intentional space that highlights and empowers all artists for whom radical creativity is not a choice, but a necessity. Launch Left begins with music, but its ultimate aim is to launch left of center artists in all creative fields.